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[YagerX]

Time-Out.
I'm new. ish. Am programming in AS3 and is confused.
I've tasted a little C++ before and it seemed...fine. I followed some basic tutorials (what are variables, functions and what not) but I don't quite think I got to the really deep things like what you guys are talking about, I just decided it wasn't quite what I needed and flash was fine.
You guys have piqued my interest in C++ again and want to learn more about the higher(or lower) level stuff this time. I guess I should read some of stroustrop's books any suggestions?

[PGGB]

There must be a reason all console + the majority of PC gaming uses C++, it is fast and scales well to large teams of programmers. I have nothing against any other language for hobby, web, business or scientific purposes - indeed it is fun to learn several - but nothing beats C++ in the games industry.

Well yeah it's fast, but I don't think it scales that well. Every company needs to limit the feature set they use to keep the codebase consistent and readable.
So you'd think that this was great for sharing code and one single game programming language that everyone agrees on but in reality every company has their own feature set and so it's really as if everyone programmed in a different language.

It would be great if the game industry could start or fuel a programming language specifically tailored towards game programming.

[increpare]

It would be great if the game industry could start or fuel a programming language specifically tailored towards game programming.

There are lots of languages geared towards different aspects of games programming.  Most big games companies now I'd say use at least four different programming languages on any given project (C++ for code, C#/&c. for tools, python for scripting, some scripting language for in-game).  Anyway, this is tigsource: let's not concern ourselves with what gigantonormous games industry teams desire, and let's look at what we, as individual programmers desire.

Mcc; checked out cilk; looks like what it is: C with a couple of extra keywords tossed in.  Hmm.

[Kekskiller]

It would be great if the game industry could start or fuel a programming language specifically tailored towards game programming.

That's a pretty damn bad idea. There is no "game industry", there is just a million of different game making approaches without real connections. Too many cooks spoil the broth; remember Microsoft?

[Movius]

Question. How many of you taking a "strong position" in here are employed in IT as programmers/software engineers/whatever?

Ouch, IT is a dirty word in my mind. I work as a software engineer in a tech + games company as a day job, our IT guy just dusts the server and replaces routers!

There must be a reason all console + the majority of PC gaming uses C++, it is fast and scales well to large teams of programmers. I have nothing against any other language for hobby, web, business or scientific purposes - indeed it is fun to learn several - but nothing beats C++ in the games industry.

Now on the other hand, it is a painful and frustrating language to learn, work with, and debug. It will eat up less able programmers and will punish smart coders endlessly. It is very hard to dip into as you need a lot of code just to start a tiny game - it is a fair commitment to get into, but the end results are well worth it... eventually.

Fair point.

Planning projects in c++ is daunting and encourages thoughts along the lines of "FUCK THIS ABOMINATION OF A LANGUAGE, I FUCKING QUIT!" But then as you get stuck in, you start to notice that you don't have to code functionality XYZ or ABC because there are 56 existing libraries written by others do the job just fine.

However, my original point was that, in the real world, more often than not you don't choose what language you work in. And almost always it's better to work with the existing code rather than rewrite in a moderately better language. Many of the posts in this thread seem to be from people that have never experienced this.

[Matt Thorson]

But the question isn't "will you have to work in C++?", the question is, "is C++ a good language?"

Obviously you can't avoid the language, it's everywhere, so it's best to learn it.  That doesn't mean we can't criticize it though and pine for something better.

Saying there's no point criticizing C++ because you'll probably have to use it is like saying there's no point looking for a cure for cancer, because you're probably going to get it.

[Aquin]

I think you guys have a strange idea of what constitutes as "better languages."  C++ has a lot of libraries, a lot of example code, a lot of tutorials, and is quite versatile for many needs.

I think it draws a lot of ire just because it's popular, so there's more bitching to be had because there are more users.  I'm sure every language has its detractors.  Could we design a better language?  Sure. 

Does anyone here speak Esperanto?

[Martin 2BAM]

Does anyone here speak Esperanto?

Hehehe, great point.

I think the key to C++'s success is that it's a mixture of "get things done" and "everybody is already using it (for the last 25 years!)".

It lacks some stuff that came with new needs over the years. But that's addressed in C++0x, so that's cool

Also it's easy on the eyes, after a while you can detect a lot of syntax flaws just with a glance. The more verbose languages (as opposed to symbol-driven) are a pain in the nuts to read.

Saying there's no point criticizing C++ because you'll probably have to use it is like saying there's no point looking for a cure for cancer, because you're probably going to get it.

I think that's not related: criticize(useless)/consequence - investigate(useful)/consequence.

[Matt Thorson]

Yeah that analogy was sort of a joke in the vein of the mock flamewar that's been happening throughout the topic.

But I do think there's nothing wrong with criticizing C++ faults despite being forced to use it.  Denying it has flaws just because you have to use it isn't any better.

[Aquin]

What the hell is this C++0x you keep mentioning?  I want to pronounce it as "cocks" which can't be good.

No wait, the Wii sold millions.  THIS IDEA IS BRILLIANT

[PGGB]

It would be great if the game industry could start or fuel a programming language specifically tailored towards game programming.

That's a pretty damn bad idea. There is no "game industry", there is just a million of different game making approaches without real connections. Too many cooks spoil the broth; remember Microsoft?

There is a game industry and in most cases the approach to game making is very similar. Nowadays we have hundreds of engines which all do the same thing kinda similar with only minor differences.
What does Microsoft has to do with this? Microsoft pushes their language single-handedly onto the market with all their power. I'm talking about a language that is controlled by all game developers. Sure there are different approaches but you can also think of some things that everyone would agree to be benefitial in game development.

The benefit of such a language would be a much greater potential for collaboration.

[B. van Stokkum]

I'm talking about a language that is controlled by all game developers. Sure there are different approaches but you can also think of some things that everyone would agree to be benefitial in game development.

While I understand that it has its limits, is GML not this?

[Average Software]

What the hell is this C++0x you keep mentioning?

C++0x is the next standard revision for C++.  It was originally slated to be done this year, C++0x would've become C++09.  Now it seems to be headed for a least a 2010 completion.

Most compilers have already started implementing the features in the new standard.

Here is GCC's support page, for example.

[iggie]

Do many C++ lovers prefer to write large parts of gameplay logic in Lua/Python ect? If so - why are these better than C++ for that?

I thought scripting languages were only useful to let non-technical designers take on some of the coding tasks - but I am interested in replacing some parts of my next C++ game with lua to make it more extensible.

[PGGB]

I'm talking about a language that is controlled by all game developers. Sure there are different approaches but you can also think of some things that everyone would agree to be benefitial in game development.

While I understand that it has its limits, is GML not this?

Yeah GML would be a language focused on game development but the resources have mainly been used to make it easy to use, not powerful and supportive for common game development problems. Also the limitations are way too great to be a industry standard.

[BorisTheBrave]

GML is certainly not focused on game development. The only game specific feature that I can think of is implicit loops over all objects in the game of a certain type. Other than that, it's a generic scripting language. Other than that, it has a extremely game focused library, but that's not the same. You can add a library to any language.

Actually, I cannot really think of any other game specific features I'd want a language to have. Perhaps OO and multiple dispatch, so I can easily express: when player collides with enemy, etc. And continuations (or at least co-routines) would be useful so you could write little animation scripts without worrying about timing. My god! I'm describing Lisp...

It's moot though. The industry cannot/will not standarise on anything, there's just too much variety. And if everyone uses all the same tools, the one who doesn't can stand out more.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Every time I think of a language feature that would be cool, it's always "c++ has that", "c++ can implement that", or "there's a c++ lib for that"

it's been around 27 years, it compiles to everything (consoles and handhelds devices included in "everything"), and the language and compilers are pretty nearly bug free.

Sure there's some syntax and semantic stuff that would be nice, but they're addressing that in C++0x

[c-foo peng]

I'm really looking forward to the "auto" keyword.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B0x#Type_inference

The question is, how quickly will Visual Studio adopt it? (I likes me the VS)

[Martin 2BAM]

You're right Matt, you must love thy flaws LOVE THEM...NOW!
Really, I think that accepting them is a way to learn.

auto keyword would be AWESOME for iterators, instead of typedeffing the shit out of every mildly complex STL class

I'm really looking forward for scoped enums (Strongly typed enumerations), the new thread model and real meta programming.
Just read about these: [[override]] and [[hiding]] are completely tits.

[increpare]

The question is, how quickly will Visual Studio adopt it? (I likes me the VS)

2010 should have the option to enable basic c++0x stuff (auto/&c.)

Sure there's some syntax and semantic stuff that would be nice, but they're addressing that in C++0x

They're addressing some of it in C++0x.  There will be just as many grumpy C++0x programmers as there are C++ programmers, I'd anticipate.  As I've said elsewhere, there're plenty of C++0x extensions I've enjoyed using, but yeah.

Every time I think of a language feature that would be cool, it's always "c++ has that", "c++ can implement that", or "there's a c++ lib for that"

C++ can do a lot of things (and it can do a lot of things very well), but there are a lot of things that other languages do far more naturally (perl/python for writing scripts or once-off programs, PHP/ruby for doing web-stuff, haskell or ocaml for doing functional programming, erlang for doing crazy concurrent stuff, lisp for not crashing (and macros), and I guess any garbage-collected language for garbage collection ). 

It seems that the games industry is going to be one of the main bastions of C++ in the coming years (given that java/.NET stuff has taken over in a huge way in the business world).  There's something about this that I find curious and amusing, but don't ask me what.