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[LemonScented]

Hi,

I suppose this is part advertisement for an artist, and part looking for advice on the best way to do so. Here's what I posted up on the COLLABORATION thread a while ago:

Programmer/Designer looking for a 2D artist. The game is based around paint (see our in-need-of-updating website with our very-old-tech-demo video here: www.lemonscentedgames.com/, blog here: http://lemonscentedgames.blogspot.com/), and so paint, its uses, and its colours is a big part of the theme and visual imagery. Right now we're thinking that a style inspired by comic book art and graffiti is probably the way to go, although something more watercolour-inspired might also work as well.

We're still polishing up tech demos and heading towards a beta at the moment, but we're hoping to find someone who is willing to get involved early with concept work and really put their visual stamp on the game. Handing someone a bunch of coder-art sprite sheets and instructions for drawing over them with proper art is one approach but we'd rather have someone who can get excited and committed rather than just cranking out work to order.

If you're interested, PM me, or drop me an email at [email protected]. Show me what you can do, tell me what you want to do, perhaps ask me to froth at you about the awesome* game we're making. It'll be fun. We can't pay a lot, but we can certainly work out something, probably involving royalty deals. We're Lemon Fresh, Citrus Sharp, and our Zest is Best!

*(Right now it's going to be fair-to-middling on the kickass scale. With you, it could be awesome)

I've had nothing in the way of responses, and I'm still looking. What I'm wondering is how other people go about finding that missing team member that can really make a project sing. Do I trawl DeviantArt, try to sift down to the kinds of artists who might fit the style of the game we're making, and start stalking them? Do I loiter around outside art colleges? Do I enter TIGSource competitions to raise my profile as a developer who is serious about putting games together (I'm going to be doing that anyway)?. I unfortunately don't have the option of shouting from the rooftops "HERE'S A GIANT SACK OF MONEY - WHO WANTS IT?!", but even if I did have a giant sack of money, I'm not sure that we want to hire someone who is primarily driven by that. We want someone who is actually excited by the game, and the idea of having a big say in how that game presents itself.

Maybe you're the kickass person we're looking for. If so, get in touch. If you don't think you are that kickass person, but you have some advice on how to find such a person, I'd be forever grateful for your advice.

[Derek]

You're very vague about what the actual game is, so it's hard to know what makes it special.  Post some newer screenshots and videos and describe the project in more detail.

[siiseli]

Give up, you won't find anyone. The world of programmers finding artists is a harsh, cruel and failure-ridden world.

[John Nesky]

It's not even clear what kind of art you're looking for. GUI? Background? Environment? Little paperclip/Navi characters to tell you what to do? 

[jrjellybeans]

By the looks of things, he needs a 2D sprite artist.

With that said, good luck!  I've been in the same position (check out my older posts) as you have been even offering to pay people what little money I had, and I've never had much luck (particularly on this forum in terms of artists).

I'd be interested in knowing if / when / how you end up finding an artist.

At the end up the day, I never found an answer.  Finding that special artist STILL hasn't been found and me and the other designer are just doing the best we can.

I wish you look.

[LemonScented]

You're very vague about what the actual game is, so it's hard to know what makes it special.  Post some newer screenshots and videos and describe the project in more detail.

Okay, my bad. New screenshots and videos should be coming Real Soon Now(tm) but given that most of the work I'm doing at the moment is technical type gubbins there's not much to show for it except the same placeholder graphics with fluid physics which is getting smoother and faster and less glitchy.

As for the game, it's a puzzle/platformer based around fluid physics, specifically for modelling large quantities of paint. The main character (provisionally named Hugh) is an employee of a paint factory, one which is probably going to look somewhere halfway between a Willy Wonka design and Black Mesa. Hugh's dayjob is to jump around pulling levers and pushing switches to operate flood gates, water wheels, pumps, centrifuges and other such devices to move paint from A to B, to mix it into other colours, that sort of stuff. So it's got some of the gameplay flavour and indirect control of the first two Oddworld games (although you're indirectly controlling paint rather than NPCs), and some of the puzzley goodness of something like Archer MacClean's Mercury.

Story-wise, it revolves around Hugh's relationship with his work colleagues, family and neighbours, as well as his own subconscious (we're planning on doing playable dream sequence type levels - a bit of Psychonauts type influence). What that means visually is a mixture of the mundane and the fantastastical, with an emphasis on the use of colours (or monochrome) as metaphors for emotional states.

In terms of what we're looking for from an artist, it's kinda... Everything. To be more specific, I don't think HUD elements will feature heavily, so it mostly comes down to 2D character and environment art and animation. The paint itself is likely to look like quite flat, in mostly primary or secondary colours, possibly with an outline (currently it's black and quite thick when viewed up close, but we can tweak that). We're looking for an art style that can complement that, which is why we've thought that pixel art might look a bit incongruous (we're willing to be convinced otherwise though), and instead we've thought that looks inspired by comics books or graffiti might be a better fit.

Give up, you won't find anyone. The world of programmers finding artists is a harsh, cruel and failure-ridden world.

Hehe, thanks for those inspirational words I generally take advice to give up as motivation to try harder, I'm stubborn like that. Jon Blow found David Hellman. Ron Carmel and Kyle Gabler seem to have done okay by working together. I myself have found some excellent artists for previous games, although they don't really do videogames anymore.

[Derek]

I think siiseli was kinda joking (RIGHT?! ).  It can be a tough search, though, so good luck!

With the game you're describing a photo collage look may be kind of cool.  You could at least start with that until you find a dedicated artist (which honestly may require either a playable demo or some moneys).

[siiseli]

I think siiseli was kinda joking (RIGHT?! ).  It can be a tough search, though, so good luck!

With the game you're describing a photo collage look may be kind of cool.  You could at least start with that until you find a dedicated artist (which honestly may require either a playable demo or some moneys).

With all the experiences I've had.. No, I wasn't joking.

[weasello]

With all the experiences I've had.. No, I wasn't joking.

I'll second that. 3 projects now with no artist onboard, including my latest:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=9009.0

The only artists I've had work with me are ones that approached me independently or were recommended to me. :/

[deWiTTERS]

Give up, you won't find anyone. The world of programmers finding artists is a harsh, cruel and failure-ridden world.

Unfortunately I can only agree with this .

[pen]

With all the experiences I've had.. No, I wasn't joking.

I'll second that. 3 projects now with no artist onboard, including my latest:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=9009.0

The only artists I've had work with me are ones that approached me independently or were recommended to me. :/

Dude, that looks pretty sweet. I kind of have a lot to do atm, and am total crap with UI & animations, but I really hope you find some cool artist for it!

[Hideous]

Give up, you won't find anyone. The world of programmers finding artists is a harsh, cruel and failure-ridden world.

Unfortunately I can only agree with this .

I've been doing pretty well so far. I've only made graphics for one of my games.

[ChevyRay]

I think siiseli was kinda joking (RIGHT?! ).  It can be a tough search, though, so good luck!

With the game you're describing a photo collage look may be kind of cool.  You could at least start with that until you find a dedicated artist (which honestly may require either a playable demo or some moneys).

With all the experiences I've had.. No, I wasn't joking.

This must be your own fault. I advise not to pass this on as "advice".

I've never had trouble finding artists as a programmer. In fact, I get emails and messages quite often from artists wanting to do spritework for me, and I also get asked all the time by artists if I know any coders who would be willing to work with them.

It's just all in your approach. Every world is a harsh, cruel, failure-riddled one; you can't expect things to fall into your lap (although sometimes they do), but just giving up without trying is worse than trying and failing a hundred times. Cliche it might sound, but it's true.

[deWiTTERS]

I've never had trouble finding artists as a programmer.

Then can you give us some *real* advice on how to find a good artist for a collaboration?

[weasello]

This must be your own fault. I advise not to pass this on as "advice".

Careful there - I'm nothing but polite, detailed, and respectful, and get the same responses (ie: none).

I've never had trouble finding artists as a programmer. In fact, I get emails and messages quite often from artists wanting to do spritework for me, and I also get asked all the time by artists if I know any coders who would be willing to work with them.

As I mentioned, I get this frequently too - but it's always artists approaching me. I've never been able to find an artist available to work on an ongoing project. I get messages all the time asking to collaborate on new projects or to help them with their own project. I even get referrals to other artists, who are all busy if I contact them.

It seems like every artist is saying "don't call me, we'll call you."

[jrjellybeans]

I've never had trouble finding artists as a programmer.

Then can you give us some *real* advice on how to find a good artist for a collaboration?

I would as well like some concrete advice on how to find solid artists.

Nobody has approached us to work on our projects

[ChevyRay]

This must be your own fault. I advise not to pass this on as "advice".

Careful there - I'm nothing but polite, detailed, and respectful, and get the same responses (ie: none).

Oh, sorry if that came off rude I wasn't trying to imply that in a negative way, I was mostly just trying to say don't go telling everybody that it's a total lost cause when it's not, really. It can just be really demotivating.

I've never had trouble finding artists as a programmer.

Then can you give us some *real* advice on how to find a good artist for a collaboration?

Actually, I was thinking of just giving you fake advice and moving along. But I GUESS I can make an exception, just this once.

Actually, I don't have any reaaally solid advice, because it's not usually me who goes out seeking these people; they quite often come to me. Also every artist is different, a different person with different tastes in art and people, who likes different types of games. So first rule: don't go treating them like some kind of commodity, because they're not. I think what it is is that I've made a few games now, and I chat in quite a few topics and hang around the indie scene, am usually friendly and give advice to folks as often as possible, and in general just make a presence of myself. I'm not some shadowy figure that could still disappear at any point, so I think people generally feel a bit more trust towards that kind of subject right from the get-go. Even the most polite, respectful seeming character can request too much of an artist, or bail on a project mid-way.

Also, I never set out in the beginning with the idea of getting an artist for myself. I've been practicing and practicing and trying to improve my own artistic talent for years now, and largely been doing my own graphical assets. This has given me a bit of an eye for art (even if it's not that great), so I can generally speak the same language with them, because I know what it takes to do what they're doing, I know what to reasonably expect from them because I've been there and done that.

Another example I'll give is Cactus or Jwaap. Look at those guys, they've made a retarded amount of games (especially Jwaap), and even if their own artwork isn't what artists might call the cream of the crop, they stick to it and keep pumping out new games that are interesting and fun to play. Do you have any doubt that if either of those guys asked for an artist, there would be many folks jumping at the opportunity? It's not just a popularity contest, it's because they rarely ever do, and have proven that they can push through and finish a project and all its aspects many times over.

It sounds lame, but if you have a few decent games behind your back (even if it's just one or two simple freeware games!), which you created entirely yourself, it says something about your dedication to the craft, and being an artist myself as well, that's quite appealing.

Folks often say not to become friends with those you work with, as it just makes it harder to drop 'em when they let you down. Maybe there's some truth to that, but I think that holds more weight when it comes to larger projects as well. My games tend to be smaller ones, and I always end up becoming really friendly and personal with the people I work with, and I've even had some of my best friends from real life contribute music and other assets to my game. They can prove just as helpful partners as any, and because you know them better, it can be a lot easier to criticize them or make strong requests of them.

I don't really know what else to say. I'm no pro, but I've been both a programmer who has worked with artists, and an artist who has worked with programmers, so I guess I have a bit of an advantage in a way.

[Mightypea]

Since it seems people in here are having trouble finding artists, I thought I'd share my perspective on things.
You'd be much better off posting on an artist's forum for this purpose, although don't expect to get many replies (from respectable artists) before you have something to show. Given how hard it is for an artist to accurately judge a programmer, they will want to see something working, as well as a good plan for the game (many artists will be all too familiar with failed projects, having possible been part of a great deal of mod-teams themselves).

Also, make sure you're very clear on what style and specs (2d/3d, resolution, polycount) you're looking for, and don't be afraid to have examples/screenshots ready of games that you think illustrate that well.

As for good places to post this, biased as I am I'd suggest boards.polycount.net for 3d, having been a member there for a long, long time. I feel I must warn you that people can be brutally honest there, although I certainly see that as a plus.
Other places are forums like www.gameartisans.org, www.game-artist.net for 3d, conceptart.org for 2d, and www.wayofthepixel.net for sprite-based stuff

Also, if you can show off previous games, or the bare bones of your new game in a way that's clear and that shows good progress, feel free to contact me anytime (pm) and I'll see if I know someone suitable!

I hope this helps, especially since things seem to have gotten quite heated in this thread!

edit:
It bears keeping in mind that you'll have the most succes if you can pay the artist, or if they get an equal cut of the proceedings. I imagine you'll certainly be able to find artists who'll join you for free, but in that event I would suggest to adjust your expectations.

[LemonScented]

Just a heads-up to let you know that I'm still here, reading and enjoying the thread. I've had a bit of interest from some artists recently - it's early days, so it's yet to be seen whether anything comes of it (I don't intend to latch onto the first artist that comes along, and neither do I intend to find the "right" artist and try to exploit them into doing my evil programmer bidding  ). Needless to say, although I'm encouraged by hearing from some people, the more the merrier, so I'd still be very happy to hear from more people.

It seems like this is quite a big issue for many indie teams. I can understand why - questions about reliability in terms of projects getting finished and everyone getting paid (assuming there's even any money to go around), differences in opinions for artistic direction, and the old chestnut of everyone wanting to work on their own ideas rather than spending time contributing to someone else's... But it would be great if there was something, collectively, that we could do to improve matters.

It's clear that there are auteurs out there, who can perform well enough in every discipline of game development to be able to put out games without help from others (I've done it myself, although my pixel art is pretty dreadful), but the range of skills needed to put out a game, even a small indie game, is pretty broad. How would you guys go about streamlining the process of people in different fields finding each other and agreeing to work with each other? It strikes me as a pretty noble goal, if there's a way of achieving that.

[dbb]

Well, I'm an artist who'd be interested in collaborating with a programmer.
After the current competition, though.

The only general advice I have, from an artist's p.o.v., is:

a) I wouldn't, on the basis of my own experience, bother with Deviantart. I've had a number of people message me there with requests for help / offers of work, and it's generally turned out to be someone with very little idea of what they want or what they're going to do with it when they get it. I don't want to be overly damning, but the site as a whole has a very amateurish vibe to it.

b) Be upfront about money. If you want someone to work for free, that's fine, but say so at the beginning. Being vague about financial details can make one sound like one's trying to pull some sort of scam. Anyone who's been working freelance for any length of time is likely to have been ripped off at least once, and it tends to make people wary.