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[tieTYT]

I'm getting feedback on my game which has Action RPG elements (think Diablo, Torchlight, etc.).  When you kill enemies sometimes new weapons will drop.  In my game the DPS of the weapon will be randomized but stronger the further you get.  Each weapon type has a hard coded range and rate of attack, but it differs between types.  As an example, every Pistol will attack once per second and every Machine Gun will attack 5 times per second.

A common complaint I'm getting is:

The weapons needs more variety, there's not really many reasons to change weapons because they all have the same speed and small damage differences.

I'm struggling to achieve this.  I can vary speed and range for each type, and this seems like an "ok" solution but it's not good enough.  This just feels like a sliding scale that looks like this:

Code:

    range <-----|-----------------> rate of attack
    dps: 10

Here you can change the range and the rate of attack, but the DPS is still going to be based on the level of the enemies.  In the end, it's still not going to matter which weapon you choose because they'll all have about the same DPS. 

If I make it so they don't have the same DPS, then yeah, there will be reasons to change weapons, but it'll be because some weapons suck and some weapons are good.  I don't think this puts me in a better place.

I want the player to feel like weapon type X has pros and cons over weapon type Y.  How can I achieve this?

[noumenus]

Do the weapons use ammo? If so that would be one way of making players use different weapons as they run out of ammo. Also Doom did a pretty good job at balancing its weapons and each weapon was better than other weapons in certain situations and environments. For instance if your player has a rocket launcher or splash damage weapon that can hurt the player, put them in a close quarter environment so they will want to switch to a machine gun or something

[tieTYT]

Do the weapons use ammo? If so that would be one way of making players use different weapons as they run out of ammo. Also Doom did a pretty good job at balancing its weapons and each weapon was better than other weapons in certain situations and environments. For instance if your player has a rocket launcher or splash damage weapon that can hurt the player, put them in a close quarter environment so they will want to switch to a machine gun or something

Yeah that's an interesting idea even though it's from a different genre.  I may do something like that.

But no, there's no ammo.  You also can't switch weapons in the middle of gameplay, you have to do it between levels.

[Alec S.]

Three common ways of making weapon variety matter is 1) Making each weapon useful in different situations 2) Making the weapons compliment each other in some way (this is mostly for games with multi-character parties, or co-op games) and 3) Making different weapons fit into different play styles (this is more of a thing in skill-based games such as shooters).  Since you're making a Diablo type game, it sounds like you'll want to focus mostly on option 1, potentially with some option 2.

So, if you're going with guns, there's quite a few variables you can play with to accomplish these things.

Rate of fire
Damage
Clip size
Reload rate
Range/effective range
accuracy
spread
recoil
knockback
ect...

And, of course, you can give the projectiles themselves various properties.  Projectiles could inflict status effects on enemies, or an have area-of-effect (eg. an explosion).

So let's look at some examples of how we can differentiate weapons using some of these stats to make them more useful in some situations and less useful in others.

Pistol vs. Rifle:
Let's say you have a pistol with a clip size of 6, a fairly fast rate of fire, moderate-to-low damage, and a moderate reload time.  On the other hand, you have a rifle that does damage much higher than the pistol, but has a clip size of 1 or 2, and has a slow reload.  You can make it so in terms of straight DPS, the rifle is better.  However, what does the player do when they're in a situation where they're facing multiple weaker enemies.  Say they can be taken out in 1 or 2 pistol shots.  The player will want to use the pistol in that situation, as they can shoot and kill multiple enemies before having to reload, whereas the rifle will only kill one at a time with a long reload in between.

Shotgun
The most common way I've seen to implement shotguns in games is to have them damage a cone in front of the player rather than a straight line, and either give them a limited range, or make their damage fall off dramatically the further away you're shooting.  Practically useless against a single enemy far away, simultaneously deals heavy damage to 4 enemies really close in front of the player.  Again, makes it much more effective than the pistol and rifle in some situations, and much less effective in others.

Machine gun
Low damage, low accuracy, but high rate of fire.  Again, you can give it a higher DPS than the pistol, but firing against one enemy it'll come out dealing less damage because about half of the shots end up missing.  But if there's a room full of enemies, a higher percentage of shots are bound to hit something.

Tranquilizer Gun
Like the pistol, but instead of dealing damage, it inflicts sleep on the enemy.

Of course the specifics will change depending on the game, but the general idea remains.  Focus on making guns have situation advantages over each other so they each have their place.

[tieTYT]

Thanks for the reply.  In my game you actually control a team so 2) would be very relevant.  Would you mind going into that more? 

[Alec S.]

Well, in some ways a lot of the basic ideas can remain the same, just with the added bonus of being able to position your party members to take advantage of the sutuational benefits of their weapons, and have them support each other so that their situational weaknesses don't come into play as often.

For example, you can have one person in close quarters with a shot gun keeping enemies from getting close to the guy with the rifle who is further away sniping particularly high-health enemies, or enemies that attack from long range. 

You can also have things where one weapon inflicts a status ailment that makes it so the other character's weapons are more effective than either would be on their own.

[tieTYT]

You can also have things where one weapon inflicts a status ailment that makes it so the other character's weapons are more effective than either would be on their own.

Good idea.  Thanks a lot for the advice

[Kastlo]

Ok, before you read this comment I'll have to inform you that I'm not a fan of Action Rpg diablo style. I liked torchlight 2 because it hits all the right spots for a casual of the genre like me, but I really have a hard time enjoying the genre as it stands.

With that said, my opinion in making different weapons is maybe one of the simplest (and more "casual", again): one would to make them look WAY different in looks and more useful in some situations or another, like having heavy-light-magic attributes to weapons or whatever. This is the most realistic solution I can give to your problem.

Btw active abilities on them I think is also a nice choice. 9 times out of 10 I would pick a weapon that allow me to shoot lighting, instead of a boring "+2 critical chance" if you know what I'm saying  

[Peléo]

Keeping on with you slider analogy, many times when you just vary common variables between weapons you are mostly affecting only the rate in which the player takes an action, and not what action they are taking. You are just changing some player sliding scales:

shoot less  <-----|-----------------> shoot more
stay closer <---------|------------> stay farther

Giving unique abilities for weapons changes the way the player may approach a situation and encourages them to experiment different strategies. You may have a gun that makes double damage if you shoot the enemy from behind (encourages moving around the map more frequently, and even some type of surprise attack). A laser gun whose bullets do more damage if they bounce on walls firt (encourages creative angles). A sniper rifle that does more damage if you keep a no-miss-streak (more thoughtful shoots and the pressure of "I can´t drop this now"). Another one with a buff if you alternate between targets and a decay if you keep shotting the same (say you have a big boss who summons minions during the fight, this weapon encourages the player to swap targets, instead of the usual strategies of focus only the boss or get rid of the minions and then focus). A cannon-like weapon that pierces through enemys and does more damage to tha last one (encourages minion farming and smart positioning).

[tieTYT]

Giving unique abilities for weapons changes the way the player may approach a situation and encourages them to experiment different strategies. ...

Great ideas Peleo, I'm definitely going to use some of those.  Thanks a lot!

[starsrift]

Making different attack sounds actually has a huge player impact. Remember, they're telling you what they think of the entire experience, while it is our nature as designer to focus on numbers.

[SteelyNeil]

I think the best way to do this is just to make weapons meaningful. Make a lot of weapons; at least twice as many as you think will be in the game on paper, and take out whatever doesn't seem fit. Then, focus heavily on giving each remaining weapon meaning: ie, usefullness in different areas of the game, different enemies. Also, make sure your player can't just switch willy-nilly between weapons: force them to choose a select few they like and learn them inside and out. Happy game-making! 

[The Translocator]

Remember the rock-paper-scissors type gameplay most good strategy games have.
It's not about making the weapons each good against all enemies in specific situations, but about making all weapons good at something but not everything.

Pokemon does this well.
http://www.erichschuler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/pokemon_type_chart_by_benjamoid-d30zwry.png

[tieTYT]

Pokemon does this well.
http://www.erichschuler.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/pokemon_type_chart_by_benjamoid-d30zwry.png

Wow I've never seen that graphic before.  Hard to believe a game like that has such complexity.  Thanks

[Eadow]

Many good answers in here, but I'd like to point out that when making systems like this, balance is really important. As and example, many games make it so that the only disadvantage of the pistol is that it has very low damage, but then they give you headshots and ways to increase the critical damage of the weapon. Experienced players can then use this to make the pistol into the most over-powered weapon in the game, that has lots of ammo, shoots fast, has good range and also deals a lot of damage.
You need to make sure that every weapon has its uses, and there is not a single weapon that is better than the others.

[baconman]

Okay, so pistols, shotguns, snipers and semi-autos are the standard. The pistol is the obvious fallback, so make the others require different strategy and positioning to use effectively... and then design scenarios where they're each useful!

Then the rest, you'll want to take a more utilitarian approach to. I'd suggest a similar approach with explosives; you'll want a variety like proximity mines, laser tripbombs, missiles/RPGs, grenades... and again, situations where they're useful.

You want to give the weapons a sense of *importance,* and that doesn't come in the weapon itself, but in the level design of the game.

[Landshark RAWR]

Path of exile has some good examples of different weapon type feeling different, though the only ranged weapons are bows and spells. ill list out the melee weapons inherit bonuses to see if you get any ideas.

Sword: +accuracy rating
Axe: no bonus but has higher damage
Mace: extra stun duration
Staff: extra block chance
Wand: Spell damage
Claw: small life steal
Dagger: critical strike chance
Scepter: elemental damage
Rapier: critical strike damage

also only having guns that shoot bullets straight is boring, shotguns have spread, machine guns shoot bullets real quick but have a noticeable accuracy cone, miniguns take time to spin up. you could also get real weird depending on the theme with big energy balls, bullets that bend all crazy.

[tieTYT]

miniguns take time to spin up

Nice, I like that idea.  Thanks a lot

[Kyuugatsu]

Another game that does this well in my opinion is FTL, the space roguelike. It's similar to your game in that you can't swap out weapons anytime you want. They also have the concept of the generator, more powerful weapons take more energy and you can do less of other stuff.

Check out the weapon types here:
http://ftlwiki.com/wiki/Weapons

[tieTYT]

I never thought of FTL as inspiration.  That's an interesting idea, thanks.  I think the binding of issac has more in common with my game, though.