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[XRA]

I'm wondering if anyone has any insights or thoughts on randomness VS something like deterministic chaos, where (as far as I understand) you could imagine the initial values as being fixed when things are set in motion (almost like a preset random seed), but over time the system/behaviors/results become less predictable..

The reason I'm asking is I've started working on setting up waves/patterns in a game, and I'd like for the patterns to go on forever with certain properties slowly ramping up to a maximum, which would contribute to the difficulty of things.  

Ideally I like the notion of having a game present itself pretty much the same way early on, for Players to familiarize themselves with the rules, and to allow for the game mechanics to be balanced in favor of letting the Player learn and become more skilled at completing the challenges...  

But that is where things get a bit fuzzy, I don't exactly want to have to manually create a set of 100 or so patterns that model the increase in difficulty, and I don't exactly want the patterns to be entirely random from the start.

I've started looking into Attractors, and came across the Gumowski-Mira Attractor, which creates some nice looking shapes just by tweaking a couple numbers, it might be the type of thing I need..  I'm thinking as the Player succeeds a rank value increases which feeds into the Attractor to modify it's patterns, along with increasing other stats related to enemies, something that boosts rank faster for skilled players and slower for slow players, while providing patterns that could in theory be witnessed multiple times if the Player plays through with the same performance/skill level..

here are some questions.

if you've played any of the Geometry Wars games, would you say they are random, or some type of formula based on the player's actions?  On some of the modes it seems hard to tell.
-Pacifism seems to be random, with enemies spawning X distance from player.

-Waves starts off in an identifiable pattern but the side of the screen enemies comes from seems picked at random, it continually gets more and more hectic to the point where the pattern of enemies spawning from each ofthe 4 sides appears chaotic and random.

-Sequence is probably the most pattern-based and fixed of them all, the only thing that varies seems to be the positions of groups of enemies related to where the player is.

-Evolved (the main classic mode) has a feeling of an identifiable ramp-up, but I'd say the enemies right from the get-go are spawning in random positions, it seems to just be the number and types of enemies which are fixed and slowly ramp up, however it hits a point where it is hard to tell what is going on.. actually I kind of think it caps-out at a maximum spawn frequency around 30 or 40 million as long as you maintain your run without dying.


What about a game like Fruit Ninja, on the casual side of things.  It seems like the initial few waves are fixed and teach the player the rules while ramping up difficulty, 1 fruit, 1 fruit, 2 fruits, 2 fruits, 1 bomb, 2 fruits and a bomb, eventually your first opportunity at an easy fruit combo, and from then on it seems to be random... but is it random?? Is it Rank that increases as the player succeeds and drops down when they fail?

any thoughts...?   I know it is easy to just say "just make it however it best feels fun and seems balanced" or whatever.. but I'm wondering if there are some techniques I'm missing when designing games that are intended to be played similarly to Fruit Ninja and Geometry Wars.

[J-Snake]

I see what you want here. Finding some algorithms which save you time manually designing all the levels and being potentially infinite in their number.

I think in that case you should use a combination of several handmade gameplay-elements which are tested and working. Then your algorithm just needs to be about how to combine them and probably about adapting some parameters to make some sections tighter and harder.

Also take a look at Far Cry, Crytek really managed to handle the open-world here:
Far Cry is the best shooter ever made (in several aspects). Also its A.I. is the best ever created. The game allows you to make plans how to beat or traverse your enemies but you can never exactly predict what is happening once you make some noise. It manages to keep interesting balance even when bugs occur. It also has a procedural system for some ground-destruction (most of the people never noticed it).Far Cry actually features real stealth, it solely depends on how you traverse your environment, that adds some real depth and there are many choices you can take but it never gets too cheap. It is just interesting fun to play.

[iffi]

If I understand you correctly, Warning Forever's a good example of what you're talking about. The first boss is always the same, and the game adds sections to that boss in subsequent stages depending on how you choose to attack the boss and what attacks were most effective against you. If you attack the boss in the exact same way every time, you'll get the same or a very similar result, but most of the time that doesn't happen, so the bosses can end up pretty different.

I've never played any Geometry Wars games, but I suppose that in a game like that randomness, while gradually ramping up the enemy varieties and spawn frequencies, would work fine. Echoes does something like that, with a new enemy type being introduced with each level (I don't recall if level-ups are based on time, score, or something else), and with the number of enemies coming after you increasing up to the maximum Level 10.

[X3N]

I second Warning Forever http://www18.big.or.jp/~hikoza/Prod/index_e.html
Also, have you played roguelikes? Ala http://nethack.org/. I think that's more what you're looking for. Procedurally generated elements like this:
http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Potion#Generation

[baconman]

Keep your generation algorhythms simple in structure, and simple in execution, and vary them a lot (few toughies, numerous weaklings, one guy that sticks around, menacing the player, guys that run away and reward the player for pursuit, etc.).

The complexity of the game will evolve naturally by increasing the randomization, and using them in combinations with one another, as opposed to making "harder groups."

. Here's a Koopa Troopa level.
. Here's a Spiny level.
. Here's a Hammer Bros. level.
. Here's a Koopa Troopa and Spiny level.
. Here's a Koopa Troopa and Hammer Bros. level.
. Here's a Spiny and Hammer Bros. level. Hard enough yet?
. Oh, you beat that? Here's a rewarding water level with more luring coins.
. And here's a water level with Hammer Bros. Good luck.

[dantheman363]

I think making sure that the algorithm is a gradual one, is key. You don't want to overwhelm the user.