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[Caelonn]

I'm not sure how this thread is going to progress so this may not be the correct forum for it a question of this nature. Mods feel free to move this elsewhere as you see fit.

So where to begin. I'm not going to lie, I only joined this forum for the purpose of wanting other peoples' perspectives on my question. Didn't think much further ahead than that, but hopefully I'll be able to find something to stick with and I'll stick around with this community.

I've done lots of mapping for the Doom, Goldsrc and Source engines. Unfortunately being an INTP, I often have difficulty finishing projects - I often like to dabble in different things for a while, but eventually I'll lose interest or grow dismayed at how my work is progressing and the project gets scrapped. Over the past ten years or so I've worked both on my own on personal projects and contributed to a bunch of mod teams as well - one thing that's always been difficulty for me however is specialization. I can do a bit of everything - graphics, level design, writing, what have you. Mapping and texture design are the main ones for me, but still, I tend to become overly ambitious or simply find that mere mods/maps aren't a suitable medium to accommodate my ideas.

I'm going to try not to ramble too much, but basically I want to start doing actual indie games as I definitely think being able to take baby steps with playing around with different ideas in a more lighthearted, experimental context may be a bit more productive for me. There's a few ideas I've been carefully developing in the back of my mind for some time now, primarily adventure games and RPGs which are undoubtedly my favorite genres.

Oh, just one thing. I can't program! Save for some really primitive Java console programs, I've never been able to discipline myself long enough to write anything with the slightest semblance to a functional game. I have all the ideas and the art in mind, but one thing that's often dismayed me is how programming is the only genuinely "dedicated" position on a team there is. Everybody can take turns writing quests, designing the areas for them and even some of the artwork that complement those areas, but the people who program tend to be on another tier altogether and pretty much everybody has to rely on them. Even roles like level design aren't very committal positions anymore as engines are moving away from brushes and becoming increasingly model-based in nature.

So in sum - I was wondering how many solo indie developers start out? Is it wise to specialize, or is doing a bit of everything part of the nature of indie development? I've always preferred that method myself, but I don't know where to begin. Do you think it's worth it to learn something like Java or Flashpunk for game development, or is it best to simply utilize third party engines and kitschy things like Game Maker? I realize that not everybody is an expert programmer, but if you intend to go into the industry I oft wonder if there really is any point in committing yourself to learning a full language, or if it's best to simply cover "just enough" to meet the needs of your projects? Especially for people who generally focus more on writing/artwork? Is it worth it to become acquainted with a language just so that you can get your projects off the ground, or should you just resort to things like Game Maker and continue to actively focus on your specialties?

Sorry if this post was a bit unruly, but I need to head out in a bit - any feedback is appreciated.

EDIT: Oh hey, there's an introduce yourself thread.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

game maker uses GML, which is a full language -- you can't really make good games in game maker without knowing GML

i'd recommend learning a full language, either GML or flash or anything else. you can't really make a game without one. that said, learning a programming language doesn't mean you have to master it and know everything about programming, you can learn pretty much any full programming language in about two weeks, at least enough of it to make a game. it's not really that big of a deal, basic programming is simple. as long as you don't worry too much on the "engine" and forget about making the game -- that's the point at which you're focusing too much on the programming

for someone new to indie games i'd recommend unity, flashpunk/flixel, or game maker

[increpare]

I oft wonder if there really is any point in committing yourself to learning a full language, or if it's best to simply cover "just enough" to meet the needs of your projects?

I learn as I go.  Admittedly by this stage I know enough of the basics that I can pick up/recognise most things pretty easily.  Sometimes I'll sit down with a book to cover up gaps.  But back when I was starting from scratch I worked from tutorials, but let myself wander.  Most modern languages have LOTS of stuff that you can learn that's completely esoteric/unnecessary to know for most tasks, especially for games.  Learn what's useful - usually tutorials and stuff will pick out the good things, and when you've found your feet you can pick and choose from more advanced things that you think you'll find useful/are interested in.

[questions like this would probably be better-suited to the technical subforum than the design one]

[s0]

i'd recommend learning a full language, either GML or flash or anything else. you can't really make a game without one.

Click-type programs (MMF, Construct) have purely graphical interfaces and I've seen some pretty sweet games made in those. Tho you can use Python(?) in Construct I think. Do most "major" Construct games use it?

I'm not overly interested in programming per se, so I just learn what I need for my games.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i'd consider the mmf2 graphical interface a "disguised" form of programming -- there are conditions, actions, etc., it's a graphical programming language, but it's still programming

basically if something has

- conditional statements
- loops
- variables
- the basic operators
- function calls and the ability to write your own functions

then i'd consider it a programming language, even if it's graphical and not done through writing letters or words

the only engines that i've tried that can make games entirely without programming are mugen and pre-plotscripting ohrrpgce and really old versions of rpgmaker

[s0]

O rite sorry about the confusion. I've actually used a graphical music programming language (PD) for years. 

[Byth]

As a general rule, learning to program is probably beneficial. You do not, however, NEED to learn to program. There are game makers that don't strictly require it. Stencyl and The Games Factory come to mind.

More ability to program means more freedom and flexibility.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

there was another visual programming language that tale of tales used to use -- some 3d program had it, i forget its name (it was before they switched to unity)

i'm not actually sure if making programming visual makes it any easier though. perhaps less intimidating, but it feels "easier" to me to just write some GML code than to try to do the same thing through drag and drop. but perhaps that's just cause i'm familiar with it, it might be easier to do the drag and drop to someone new to both

[MadWatch]

So you can imagine all the design of a game but can't program it ?
Damn I'm exactly the opposite

Game design is not an easy thing, neither are level/quest design and concept art. If you feel you have talent for these things then I encourage you to dedicate yourself to them and let programming to others.

If you don't have a programmer to work with you then there's game making programs and modding. It's probably better then wasting your time mastering programming enough to make a full game by yourself.

My two cents.

[Caelonn]

Wow, some quick replies. Yeah, I just wanted to know the extent to which some of you guys prioritize learning coding in relation to the needs of your game (and possibly beyond). I'd probably get a lot more frustration out of visual drag-and-drop scripting (LEGO Mindstorms anyone?) than if I just got down some of the basics for Java or Flash, but who knows.

Is there some sort of universally agreed upon language devs tend to use in this community? As much as I'm tempted to learn Flashpunk due to the straightforward documentation (and pretty website), Java probably has far more support in the way of libraries and the like. Plus the raster look is an absolute must for me.

EDIT: Madwatch - Well, to an extent. You must realize I have never gotten any more nitty-gritty (in terms of user unfriendliness) than Adventure Game Studio's scripting system, and at the same time lately I've been spoiling myself with more WYSIWYG things like the Elder Scrolls Construction Set. I think it would be quicker to find a dedicated to coder, but I also have lots of fun little experimental things I want to try out whereas most people who wish to collab probably want to do a formal project.

[Zack Bell]

I sent you a private message because I didn't want to post a wall of text here.

Also, many developers use C++ or Java. C++ is used less than it is in the AAA side of things, but it is probably still used more than Java is. Java is much easier to learn though (for most people). Python should be even easier. I'd honestly recommend GML though.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

java isn't that common among indie devs; i only know of a few indie games made in it. i wouldn't really recommend it, since it's about as difficult to learn as c++ is, and less powerful. it's commonly taught in computer programming classes in college now though, so if you do take programming in college chances are they'll teach java rather than anything else

[Byth]

Game Maker probably has the most tutorials, but there are a few flash devs here and enough tutorials to live on.

[Richard Kain]

If you want to create a game based on a clear-cut template, then there are numerous solutions available. The most common would be for First-Person-Shooter games, there are any number of engines that you can create content for. For 2D RPGs, I believe there are builder programs you can find. Ren-Py is a good solution if you are looking to make a graphical-novel experience. And you can make a decent point-and-click adventure with minimal coding using Adventure Game Studio (AGS).

The downside to these solutions is that they are limited, and targeted at specific types of play. The value of learning to program is that it frees you of the constraints of those systems. I would definitely recommend learning programming. I tried most of the pre-packaged game development solutions before I actually learned to program. I was always frustrated by the limitations of those game-creation systems.

[Zack Bell]

Hey now, what's a FPS? An RPG?

We're Indie, the boy needs to grab GM and go make himself a Cave Story clone, pronto 





...

[iffi]

Hey now, what's a FPS? An RPG?

We're Indie, the boy needs to grab GM and go make himself a Cave Story clone, pronto  





...

You're wrong, it's far more fashionable right now to create a Minecraft clone!

To answer the question: "Learning a full language" is something that can take a lifetime. The best way to learn a language is by using it, so you should learn as you go and perhaps look more deeply into things that interest you. If you want to get into making games quickly, Game Maker should allow you to get started relatively quickly, and if you learn GML it'll be easier to learn another language should you end up doing so.

[Caelonn]

To answer the question: "Learning a full language" is something that can take a lifetime. The best way to learn a language is by using it, so you should learn as you go and perhaps look more deeply into things that interest you. If you want to get into making games quickly, Game Maker should allow you to get started relatively quickly, and if you learn GML it'll be easier to learn another language should you end up doing so.

I'm just not sure to what extent I may want to expand on any of my projects in the future, so I was thinking maybe it'd be better to go with a full-blown language so I don't have to scrap everything and start over. Which I probably will anyway since that's the nature of indie work. My other idea was to make a proof-of-concept in Game Maker, and then write the real thing in Flash or something of that sort.

[Amirai]

Tho you can use Python(?) in Construct I think. Do most "major" Construct games use it?

No, the events are powerful enough that most times there's no need for python.

My other idea was to make a proof-of-concept

Good idea.

[pixhead]

Read the intro post, scimmed through the rest, hope I am not repeating anything but here goes:

First off I would say that you do NOT need to go beyond game maker for most projects, game maker is a good program and you can make many good high quality games using it. This is the truth for many engines and game making software. That being said I learned programming for two reasons. First I enjoy programming, Second I knew that I plan on pursuing a career in programming and seeing as how I am in high school I am in no hurry to start games right away.

What you can take from that is this, programming without the help of an engine or game making software takes time. If you just want to jump in and start stay away from c++, java, etc. If you slowly want to build up and eventually make crazy sick games then by all means go ahead. Otherwise stick to game maker, and engines.

As I always say after writing a big speech, I hope that made sense.

[Caelonn]

i'd recommend learning a full language, either GML or flash or anything else. you can't really make a game without one.

I'm not overly interested in programming per se, so I just learn what I need for my games.

Pretty much what I had in mind. The additional appeal of programming as opposed to Game Maker or something though would be any (this is assuming I were to actually finish a project, of course!) additional perks such as online high scores and easy embedding - more reason I was thinking of Flash over Java. But again, I'm liking the idea of making a prototype in Game Maker more and more.

Also I know this is a bit late, but wasn't your previous avatar that photograph of John Romero in high school? Yes, I'm a fan as well. :v