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[BlueSweatshirt]

Have those people specifically stated their opposition to such institutions?

If not, it's a serious mistake to generalize "indies" as a collective of people who share similar viewpoints, especially on business practices.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i'm pretty sure e.g. phil fish has said negative things towards game industry corporations, so i think in some cases yes, but i agree with you about the generalization thing

also i'm not sure what it means to "take advantage" of reviews by corporations. game industry corporations use indies to make more money. indies in turn use game industry corporations (such as valve) to make more money. it's a co-parasitic process. the difference is mainly that most indies are motivated slightly less by money than most corporations are, even if both want money and both act to get money

but yeah, there's not really all that much difference between zynga making farmville 2 because farmville was popular and jeff vogel making endless sequels to his crpgs because his fans liked his earlier crpgs. but not all indies are guilty of that

[Zaphos]

phil fish has said negative things towards game industry corporations, so i think in some cases yes

Of course, him saying negative things towards/about specific corporations in the industry doesn't mean he has a problem with the 'corporately-owned machinery' as a whole ...

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yes and no; sometimes some of the things indies say are negative towards game industry corporations as a whole. e.g. jon blow has said "I think the mainstream game industry is a fucked-up den of mediocrity"

note that i'm not disagreeing with them, i've similar opinions on the game industry in its modern form. but i've also worked less with the industry than they have. i was mainly agreeing with caruso that it's a little hypocritical to say the types of things jon blow says about the industry and then turn around and get publishing deals on exclusive platforms from the industry.

i think in some cases that's unavoidable because the game industry owns a big portion of the market share for games. but i think indies should at least *try* to avoid it. e.g. i think indies should try to avoid console exclusivity deals; is it really worth the extra money to an indie developer to deny people on the pc (even for a short time) the right to play your game when a working pc build exists? i'm not talking just about fez or braid here, a *lot* of indie games do that. limbo, super meat boy, insanely twisted shadow planet, bastion, the list goes on and on

[Zaphos]

Hmm, I agree that Blow has targeted his rants quite broadly and might be hypocritical at times.  Though, it's not necessarily hypocritical to work within a framework and simultaneously claim the framework is mediocre.  Or alternatively, to dislike a framework as a whole and still be ok with specific parts of it (to which others may object, such as timed exclusives -- has Blow objected to those specifically?).

[BlueSweatshirt]

And it's not like it's unheard of to be the most critical of what you're most closely involved in.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

jon blow talks negatively about console exclusivity in this interview: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/126427/Interview_Jonathan_Blow__Xbox_Live_Arcade_A_Pain_In_The_Ass_For_Indies.php -- he basically says it was a bad idea to make braid exclusive to microsoft, that he doesn't like when games do that, and that his next game won't do that

[ham and brie]

jon blow talks negatively about console exclusivity in this interview: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/126427/Interview_Jonathan_Blow__Xbox_Live_Arcade_A_Pain_In_The_Ass_For_Indies.php -- he basically says it was a bad idea to make braid exclusive to microsoft, that he doesn't like when games do that, and that his next game won't do that

Where does he say it was a bad idea?

[:^)]

All y'alls dedication to kicking dead horses is disheartening to say the least
Someone should become the leader who dictates everyone elses opinions so we can live without all this discord.
Let's put it to a vote.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

jon blow talks negatively about console exclusivity in this interview: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/126427/Interview_Jonathan_Blow__Xbox_Live_Arcade_A_Pain_In_The_Ass_For_Indies.php -- he basically says it was a bad idea to make braid exclusive to microsoft, that he doesn't like when games do that, and that his next game won't do that

Where does he say it was a bad idea?

mainly this part:

"But if you make an XBLA game, the amount of bullshit that adds is gigantic. It can take a third to a half of the effort required to build your game, in some cases, and I don't think that they understand that. I don't think that they understand that, at least for that size of game, they're competing very heavily with Steam and iOS for developer mindshare."

"I can live a comfortable life, and just put my game on Steam without that much of a hassle, or I can have the XBLA business people dick me around and give me asshole contracts that I need to spend three months negotiating back to somewhere reasonable, that they knew," said Blow. "And then have all these arguments with them and go through this horrible cert process. It's like, at some point, the question 'Why should I do that?' arises."

[deathtotheweird]

remember when phil fish didn't vote for super meat boy in the igf because it was published by microsoft

ah, those were good times.

[Blademasterbobo]

"published"


Also, note what Judas is wearing in Binding of Isaac.

[ham and brie]

mainly this part:

That doesn't mean he's saying it was a bad idea to put Braid on XBLA.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

of course, i just got the impression that he didn't expect all that trouble when he first decided to put it on the xbla, and now that he's experienced with it he's like 'never again'

[Superb Joe]

i'm looking for the right thread to say i liked phil fish before it was cool, and talked about picasso with him once. is this the one?

[fish]

remember when phil fish didn't vote for super meat boy in the igf because it was published by microsoft

ah, those were good times.

that never happened, allen.

[deathtotheweird]

so tommy is a liar?

[Superb Joe]

remember when phil fish didn't vote for super meat boy in the igf because it was published by microsoft

ah, those were good times.

that never happened, allen.

hey man

[Superb Joe]

haha, to be serious for a moment *clears throat, grips podium* i say a lot of things i don't really mean, or are obvious jokes and have no basis in reality. but some people have a little trouble parsing irony, so i'm here today to say that phil fish never murdered anyone. that's right. phil fish absolutely hasn't killed anyone in his entire life that didn't deserve it.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

what allen refers to is here:

http://www.formspring.me/Tommunism/q/307280112447925736

edit: bobo also wanted me to add this in: http://www.formspring.me/EdmundM/q/315327502144781236