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[darklight]

Hey all.  Pretty soon I'm going to have a finished product to sell, and my mind is turning to how to accomplish that.  Apologies if this thread is very similar to others, but I think everyone's situation is slightly different, and besides, I've got in trouble for necro-positing before

Anyway - a little background on my game:

- I'm a hobby indie game developer, working towards my one and only 'ideal game'
- Its XNA, so PC & Xbox only.  Xbox distribution channel is sorted obviously. 
- It (I think) is a very niche game, not easily accessible.  I dont expect it to be wildly popular.
- I'm planning on releasing many updates, with new content
- Ideally I'd like to release it for free. 
- Conflictingly, I've worked on this for 2+ years, and wouldnt mind seeing some $$$ for my time!
- I dont want to get bogged down in support - yes I'd fix obvious errors in the game, but I wouldnt know where to start if someone emailed me with 'this game doesnt work on my super duper notepad with XYZ quad core GFX card'
- Its just me behind this, not even a company to take any liability.
- Some of my content in a future release will have nazi symbols in it (hard to avoid in a WW2 Europe theme), which is illegal to sell in Germany

So I'm thinking about making available a free cut down version / demo of the game, with a donation allowing access to a full version, deployed via ClickOnce.  Maybe I'd release cut down bits of new content in the free version, but the full version would always be kept up to date with bugfixes & all released content.

Perceived benefits

- A free version is available, for people who really cant afford to pay
- Some $$$ will trickle in, if only enough to pay for hosting fees
- Because I'm not taking payment in (direct) exchange for software, I avoid all liability
- Free demo available, so if that doesnt work, dont donate & expect the full version to work (avoids tricky support expectations?)
- Minimum donation amount could increase income?

Perceived negatives

- Wont make maximum $$$ possible (or will it?  Rich donators may pay more than expected amount)
-

Hmmm, lots of things swirling around in my head, I just wanted to get something down, and maybe hear some of your opinions.

If anyone has deployed an XNA game via click once - how did that work out?  I've used it in my day job, and quite like it.  Thats in an intranet situation though.

[hopwep]

Your model is the same as mine, althought you can changue the donation mode to a pay what you want model where you select a range of prices, or you can combine both.

[darklight]

Your model is the same as mine, althought you can changue the donation mode to a pay what you want model where you select a range of prices, or you can combine both.

Good to hear!  So did you choose that model for similar reasons?  Is there any practical difference between donation & pay what you want?

[Chris Koźmik]

I would go with "the game is feeware forever but you are more than welcome to donate so I can make an improved version". You don't risk much, since your game is already a very niche one, so you won't earn much via traditional model anyway.

You might also try a model that some/most webcomics use "the next update will be when donations reach $X". Althrough, I doubt that one would work as good for a game as for a webcomic.

[Kapser]

It works better for online games like Soldat, but you can think of giving a little something to those who donate. Doesn't have to be a part of the game, can simply be one cool feature, skin or weapon.

[Hima]

I would go with "the game is feeware forever but you are more than welcome to donate so I can make an improved version". You don't risk much, since your game is already a very niche one, so you won't earn much via traditional model anyway.

You might also try a model that some/most webcomics use "the next update will be when donations reach $X". Althrough, I doubt that one would work as good for a game as for a webcomic.

Agree with all of this. Though the episodic game would work if your game is very story-driven. Kinda like Visual Novel or interactive webcomic.

Anyway, I think you should just release it for free to spread it as much as possible so that it'll reach the niche target you want to reach. From there, if they really like your game and know that they can't find this game from anywhere else, they'll support you. I mean, Dwarf Fortress is anything far from accessible yet it gets approximately $2,000 every month from donation. 

[James Coote]

I wonder if you could use something like kickstarter for this type of model. Have a campaign for each new feature set or expansion?

[Pandara_RA!]

I've heard but can't confirm that one of the better models is where you sell you game for a minimum price

say ($1 to cover fees/bandwidth) than allow for donations from there. as the buyer is already putting in that credit card info right then and there, so it's a good at the counter buy for them.

[Hima]

I've heard but can't confirm that one of the better models is where you sell you game for a minimum price

say ($1 to cover fees/bandwidth) than allow for donations from there. as the buyer is already putting in that credit card info right then and there, so it's a good at the counter buy for them.

I've read the opposite, actually. From the book 'The Economy of Free', there is a big difference between free and $1 or even $0.99. If it's free, it's more likely that people will download and give the game a try than having to pay money just to see if they like the game.

Considering darklight's targeting a niche market, he'd want to spread that game as much as possible, in order to find those niche players he's targeting among all the user. Among all the players, those who donate could be 2% or 1%, but the point is that if it reaches enough players, that low percentage will be enough. If it reaches 1,000,000 players, even 1% is still 10,000 player.

Of course, this model takes time and it will work if your game is good enough and people share the game to their friends or people they know. But it could work. Here are some examples, that I've collected from researching about this model.

Sita Sings the Blues
An animation by Nina Paley. It's released for free on the internet. She makes money from donation, selling DVDs and merchandises, and profit sharing from broadcasting - even though the cinema are not required to pay her money to play her film.
http://questioncopyright.org/sita_distribution/results
Slides regarding money she made are around 42 - 44

They are also nice enough to share almost every single detail about their financial gain from the project
http://questioncopyright.org/files/finances/civicrm-summary.txt

Dwarf Fortress
You've probably heard about this. These are articles that talk about them, as well as the income report from bay12 team themselves
http://afteractionreporter.com/2010/05/02/donations-to-dwarf-fortress-devs-top-16k-in-april/

http://www.thedrmnews.com/games/a-donation-model-can-work-dwarf-fortress-makes-profits-despite-being-freeware/

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=9d8b64b8da3930cb1ad1bdb10ff8e6b4&topic=50848.15

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=9d8b64b8da3930cb1ad1bdb10ff8e6b4&topic=106206.msg3149794#new

Kingdom of Loathing
A browser-based, mmorpg game. Released in 2003 and had never charged people money for playing game. They get money purely from donation or selling merchandise.
EDITED: Their donation can be considered as a less strict form of micro-transactions. The gift for a donator can be collected and traded for premium items.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Loathing
http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/showthread.php?t=122646
http://store.asymmetric.net/

I have more on these, but they are musicians so maybe this should be enough for now.

[Chris Koźmik]

Correction:
Kingdom of Loathing is not based on donations, it's microtransactions (buying virtual goods via real money). At a first glance it is a subtle difference, but a huge one in reality.

[Hima]

Correction:
Kingdom of Loathing is not based on donations, it's microtransactions (buying virtual goods via real money). At a first glance it is a subtle difference, but a huge one in reality.

The only item you get is Mr. Accessory, and you have to donate at least $10 to get. I wouldn't consider this as microtransaction, more of an action of giving player a reason to pay. If they were promoting and selling this more, like more items though real cash only or trade-in money for in-game currency, then I'd consider it a microtransaction and wouldn't put it in this list. The price isn't even fixed and you pretty much pay whatever you want.

If you have any information that contradict this ( Like, they sell more digital goods, they encourage people to spend money for virtual items, etc.) I'd love to see it to update my data.

[Chris Koźmik]

I played KoL many years ago, so I'm not 100% sure if my memory is not playing tricks on me but Mr. Accessory was not an item, but a currency. You could have bought many things via it on various ingame shops (I faintly remember it).

[Hima]

Thank you! I found it. You're right, it's a currency.
http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Mr._Store

While strictly speaking, this is micro-transaction, I feel like they only use it as mean to say thank you to people who support. The whole game is still accessible freely for everyone, donator or not. And most of these items are just for showing off.

Interestingly, the idea of in-game reward seem to be what players asked them to do, so it's more of an example of connecting with the fan and give them a reason to buy, I think.

On a side note, I used to play KoL as well, and I was introduced to it by my Prof. She even gave me her items 

[Radix]

I've always though KoL's business model was a really interesting case study.

Strictly speaking the Mr.As are a "gift" given to players in return for donating. I don't know how that would stand up legally (if the distinction doesn't have tax implications for them then it's moot though), but straight away that's a microtransaction with a really nice call-to-action: you're supporting the site! And you can even rationalise it away as not being a microtransaction if you're someone who doesn't do that sort of thing usually.

They're an item (you can equip them for stat boosts, which originally is all they did) and a currency. The in-game Mr. A store (which lets you buy unique and powerful stuff, including limited-edition gear) or whatever it's called was added at a later stage when the creator/s started getting serious, and does a great job of keeping demand for the little guys up.

The real stroke of genius is making them tradeable, and tradeable on the normal in-game marketplace--not a separate premium market. Since they're both convertible into unique premium junk and bought with real dosh the in-game value is extremely high, providing an incentive for players to purchase them with the intention of dropping them straight into the economy.
This works because the game is essentially single-player with not much player interaction outside of trading (kinda like swtor hyuk), so you're not fucking everything up by letting microtransaction stuff into the normal economy. You could really shit up a game doing this otherwise, and it's something people know to watch out for, so it's cool that they identified that it could work here.

Disclaimer: I haven't played for years (NS still wasn't finished) so everything I just said might be outdated!

[nico]

Some points to consider:

1: Stop worrying about it and just create something cool. Don't have guilt issues about making money. Don't obsess about what users you don't even have yet will think about you. Also, virtually all successful indie games are niche games.

2: The "Donate $X for next update" model that Archibald talks about sounds awesome. I have no idea why he thinks it won't work for games. It makes me want to donate right now, and I rarely donate to things. Alternative version after it's done is: donate $5 or more to download, once total reaches $X it becomes free. Donations beyond the given (individual and total) amounts carry over to the next project. It makes you feel like you're contributing to something permanent, not just throwing money down a hole.

3: Don't listen to me or anyone else. Listen to Hima, cause he's posting links to actual results. Test stuff and see what happens.

[gambrinous]

Considering darklight's targeting a niche market, he'd want to spread that game as much as possible, in order to find those niche players he's targeting among all the user. Among all the players, those who donate could be 2% or 1%, but the point is that if it reaches enough players, that low percentage will be enough. If it reaches 1,000,000 players, even 1% is still 10,000 player.

Wow, I really think this is wrong. If you have a mass market game, then going free-to-play to reach as many people is possible is a good idea. [then ask for money in whichever way you prefer, eg donations / microtx etc]. If you have a game with niche appeal (I'm guessing hex-based strategy game for the OP), then you should charge MORE not less, as you will get far less people at all interested in the type of game - but the ones who ARE interested are much more willing to pay a premium for this type of game (they really like it, and there are far fewer games of their niche to pick from).

[Hima]

This works because the game is essentially single-player with not much player interaction outside of trading (kinda like swtor hyuk), so you're not fucking everything up by letting microtransaction stuff into the normal economy. You could really shit up a game doing this otherwise, and it's something people know to watch out for, so it's cool that they identified that it could work here.

I think this a good point. I don't think there's a PvP in KoL so most of items collecting are just for self satisfaction.

Some points to consider:

1: Stop worrying about it and just create something cool. Don't have guilt issues about making money. Don't obsess about what users you don't even have yet will think about you. Also, virtually all successful indie games are niche games.

2: The "Donate $X for next update" model that Archibald talks about sounds awesome. I have no idea why he thinks it won't work for games. It makes me want to donate right now, and I rarely donate to things. Alternative version after it's done is: donate $5 or more to download, once total reaches $X it becomes free. Donations beyond the given (individual and total) amounts carry over to the next project. It makes you feel like you're contributing to something permanent, not just throwing money down a hole.

3: Don't listen to me or anyone else. Listen to Hima, cause he's posting links to actual results. Test stuff and see what happens.

I'm flattered but I think he should listen to other people too! I only gave examples showing that making money from free content works, but the way to do it is still an area waiting to be explored. Donation for next update and donation to free the game are also interesting ideas and I'd love to see somebody try it with games 

Considering darklight's targeting a niche market, he'd want to spread that game as much as possible, in order to find those niche players he's targeting among all the user. Among all the players, those who donate could be 2% or 1%, but the point is that if it reaches enough players, that low percentage will be enough. If it reaches 1,000,000 players, even 1% is still 10,000 player.

Wow, I really think this is wrong. If you have a mass market game, then going free-to-play to reach as many people is possible is a good idea. [then ask for money in whichever way you prefer, eg donations / microtx etc]. If you have a game with niche appeal (I'm guessing hex-based strategy game for the OP), then you should charge MORE not less, as you will get far less people at all interested in the type of game - but the ones who ARE interested are much more willing to pay a premium for this type of game (they really like it, and there are far fewer games of their niche to pick from).

It is not wrong, as I have already given examples in the same post. Of course, what you just said isn't wrong either, since I believe I have seen a niche game that charges quite expensive  for little content as well.

It comes down to, given resources you have, which strategy suit you better? You could say that niche market are willing to pay more, but how would you reach the niche target in the first place? Of course, you could make a demo, but would that be enough to make the niche target like your game?

My reply was meant to show the alternative that many might never thought about it. Many think that if the digital content is free, there is no value and people wouldn't pay you or you can't make money from it. That is not true. Dwarf Fortress is definitely for niche market. Sita sings the Blue and Nina's comic Mimi and Eunice ren't really mass market either. Yet, these people make more than $1,500 a month from their free contents. The game can be free and you can charge for something else.

Actually, we can even mix your strategy in here. I agree that you can charge the niche market more, but the game can be free while you charge quite high for something else. Maybe people who donate more than a certain amount will gain access to your dev blog and get to see all of behind the scene work. Maybe they gain an early access to the next update, or get to beta test the game. Or they could vote for which feature they want you to implement first. Maybe you can setup a forum and has a premium section that you provide faster support, posting exclusive content, etc.

[Radix]

I think this a good point. I don't think there's a PvP in KoL so most of items collecting are just for self satisfaction.

Unless things have changed much there's a sort of asynchronous pvp that has only very mild consequences (especially when someone else initiates an attack on you and wins). Since the Mr. As are tradeable those premium items are really available to everyone, although at a cost of millions of meat. Additionally from what I understand of the ascension system it rewards long-term play in a way that only long-term players can really be "competetive"--and at that point, you can just about afford anything with in-game currency.