next »

[eobet]

Does anyone remember International Karate, by Archer Maclean?




(C64 version, though I actually don't remember that background from the original game.)

Also... *cough* 

International Karate was the European response to the Japanese fighting game. The Japanese games required memorizing lots of different button combinations and precise execution of the correct one at the right time in order to make the proper move. Archer Macleans style was very different, giving you access to all moves the game offered just a single input away.

Both styles of game is ultimately a question of timing and distance and to know each move by heart. International Karate just strips away most of the learning process and superhero antics of certain extravagant moves from the Japanese counterparts.

It all worked like this:



I actually exchanged a few e-mails with Mr. Maclean a number of years back and I seem to recall we had similar ideas on how to update the game.

For the graphics, I envision a system with skeletal animation. Wether it uses polygons to get a real 3D look, or body part sprites for a simpler 2D dress up doll effect doesn't really matter, but pixel perfect collision detection would be a must.

Also a must, would be inverse kinetics. This is to make a hit on a body part that isn't the head or the torso have a proper, bounce back effect (ie non scoring). It's also to enable proper blocks. This is a more realistic type of fighting game than the Japanese games. A simulator even, if you will.

Now, here's a branching idea to bring the controls to the next level:

Most gamepads these days have two analogue sticks. These could be used to fluidly control the movements of hands and feets separately. Perhaps there could even be a sort of 1:1 mapping of angle and speed of pushing the stick correspond to the position of the hand or foot. Holding down a shoulder trigger would set the arms or legs in defensive stance, which would slow down the movements a lot and enable parrying. Animation blending would be required as well, since if you are in a fully extended attack position and switch to defensive stance, it wouldn't be very effective.

And yes, this would enable you to block with your arms, while attacking with your legs, or attacking with arms and legs at the same time (something common within, for example, the Wing Chun style of Kung Fu... that coincidentally, I've practised a bit).

The resulting gameplay would be something like Virtua Tennis, where again position and timing (and balance) is everything, but the ball would be replace by your fists and feet and you'd need to judge where the opponent's fists/feet was and were going, and try to aim for an area that you think will be open and too far to reach for the opponent in time to parry. But perhaps more hectic, as there could be theoretically four balls in the air at the same time.

So, what do you think?

(And no, I'm sadly in no position to actually implement this, as I find the math behind polygons, animation interpolation, and physics to be way over my head and way too boring to learn...) 

[Anthony Flack]

I'd just like to say that I'm pretty sure that Iinternational Karate, and its control mapping, was inspired by Way of the Exploding Fist (an Australian game), which in turn was inspired by Karate Champ, which was a Japanese game. In fact, pre-Street Fighter, it seemed like one-move-in-each-direction was the standard approach (no doubt helped by the fact that most joysticks back then were one-button). Yie Ar Kung Fu was another example.

So I don't think that it's fair to say that International Karate was the European response to the Japanese fighting game. Well okay, it was, but it was closer to its source material than you think. In fact, Data East apparently sued over the similarities between IK and Karate Champ.

[eobet]

Interesting. I loathed the Yie Ar Kung Fu games and never considered them to be similar, again because of their superhero special attacks. And of course I played the Way of the Exploding fist games, but I always assumed they were the poor knock-offs. With the exception of perhaps Panza Kickboxing (or Barbarian), no fighting game using this directional control method even comes close to the IK games, imo.

Anyway, for that period the differentation between Japanese style, which went in the direction of Street Fighter, and Western style, which went in the direction of International Karate holds.

And today, the Japanese are still producing Street Fighter type games, while here in the west... we've stopped entirely, I think?

[BMcC]

...
So, what do you think?
...

I've been thinking a lot about fighting games lately.  I'd love to see (make?) a perfectly balanced fighter with a neutral difficulty slope and low barrier to entry that experts could endlessly go blow-for-blow in.  A game that relied less on finger dexterity and more on trained reflexes, strategy, and knowledge.  (Where a player with greater enough experience would consistently dismantle a lesser opponent.)  If you could combine that with the spectator-pleasing aspect of Japanese fighters and a solid "fun factor" you'd have a winner.  (But aye, that's the rub!)

[Bree]

Start with a game that has no more than two buttons and directional movement (d-pad, analog stick, etc.). Make one character, with average speed, strength, etc. For every move, make a counter, and make a counter to the counter. Just make a graph or a tree or something of each move's relationship to one another, whatever works. Add some flashy graphics, and we've got something to start with.

[eobet]

Start with a game that has no more than two buttons and directional movement (d-pad, analog stick, etc.). Make one character, with average speed, strength, etc. For every move, make a counter, and make a counter to the counter. Just make a graph or a tree or something of each move's relationship to one another, whatever works. Add some flashy graphics, and we've got something to start with.

Sorry, but I think you missed the point of my post entirely:

The game would have no "buttons" for movements per se, only modifier keys. There would also be no "moves" or "counters", in the old sense.

Again, you push an analogue stick in a certain direction and with a certain speed and strength. The game then (buzzword time) realtime and dynamically moves one of the player's limbs (hand or fot) which becomes a projectile travelling in the same direction, with the same speed and strength as you pushed the stick in.

The opponent must then chose an appropriate limb (modifier key) to move if he wants to parry, and hope that he is positioned in such a way that his limbs will have time to reach the incoming attack in time.

There is no graph, as there are no set or static moves. It would all be based on (buzzword overkill now) rigid body physics, interpolation and inverse kinetics.

[KennEH!]

Basically a realtime Toribash?

That sounds too technical, but I guess for 8 bit fighting it's fine.

[eobet]

Basically a realtime Toribash?

That sounds too technical, but I guess for 8 bit fighting it's fine.

Toribash is all 3d, and basically a "drag and drop" style gameplay. It is also very, very complicated (I've never been able to figure that game out, I just can't understand how to aim without spending half an out on it).

I've tried to explain not only how the gameplay would work, but also the technical aspects you'd have to use to get this to work, but I'd never dream of exposing this to the player.

The player would see a fighter on screen, and when he pushes the two analogue sticks in various directions, the fighter would kick and punch in those directions. If any of you have read Donald Norman, this would hopefully work like "natural mapping".

[Pishtaco]

Something like 'Die by the Sword'?

[William Broom]

Well... I dunno about you but I find it really hard/impossible to tilt an analog stick to a certain degree except when I do it very slowly. In a fast-paced game, it's either all or nothing.
It seems like it would essentially have the same learning curve as Street Fighter, except instead of having to practise a lot of bullshit button combinations, you have to practise tilting the analog stick at the right angle and force to do the attack you want.