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[Ben_Hurr]

Here, why don't we use another analogy.

that's it. from this point onward im calling everyone comparing food to games an ass.

Agreed.  Food has way more satisfaction per dollar these day!
And besides, people that make bad food get shut down by health inspectors.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Who's to say I would have? I think BioWare made absolutely terrible mistakes I most certainly would not have made myself. Should we pay babies for demonstrating how not to walk? Or talk? Obviously not.

That's a straw man.  You said you gained knowledge from playing the games.  If you "most certainly would not have made" those mistakes, then you didn't gain knowledge from them.  I'm obviously talking about the mistakes you *did* gain knowledge from.  Also, these mistakes are the type of thing that usually get brought up in a decent review of the game, so you could save money and time by reading free reviews.

It's becoming more apparent that you're not really going to accept the flaws in your argument, just justify your point.  Your work-already-done argument did not hold, and you never contested my analogy that basically said if you buy things, there is always some uncertainty with what you're going to get. 

there's also the issue of taste. perhaps what he calls "mistakes" other people like, and they're not actually mistakes because they appeal to the average gamer rather than him. just because he wouldn't make a game like that doesn't mean that others shouldn't or that others don't enjoy such games.

an example of this: i prefer non-linear open worlds in games, but i recognize that not everyone desires this and some people are confused by not knowing where to go and prefer to be guided through their games. so i wouldn't call it a "mistake" if someone makes a linear game, even though i would not make such a game or enjoy such a game.

[s0]

someone made a product. you use it, you pay them for it (if possible).

[jotapeh]

So uh, this thread was about ROMs, once

might be good to talk about those.

It's against the EULA. As I recall, Nintendo instruction manuals always had an EULA page at the back that said something like "backup or archival copies are unnecessary and not allowed" or whatever. So there you go.

I believe it doesn't matter if it is in their EULA. There was a ruling that all purchased software is legally allowed ONE backup copy. Then again, I'm not a lawyer. But it is the same reason you no longer see Nintendo saying 'now kids, don't loan your games to your friends because it is ILLEGAL!'. Which is to say, they were overreaching their boundaries.

From what I know this is correct. Later Nintendo manuals explicitly permitted 1 backup copy, though I forget when that switchover occurred. As a kid when I flipped through legalese it caught my eye as a weird reversal of Nintendemands.

But then again I had no idea what a "backup copy" of a cartridge could possibly look like - I knew about floppy disks and hard drives - but how could you put a cartridge onto one of those? It didn't make sense to me and I certainly had no means of creating a backup copy so I ignored it.

Once games started coming out on CDs (eg., PS) I think it became more obvious to the general public that copies and backups were a very real possibility.

Actually I STILL don't know.. how did all these ROMs get copied to computers? What sort of cartridge readers/writers were/are there in existence?

[Mipe]

I've raged enough over bad floppies, scratched CDs and stuff I stopped caring about what these money suckers think of backup copies. I buy the product, I am entitled to it.

[dEnamed]

Actually I STILL don't know.. how did all these ROMs get copied to computers? What sort of cartridge readers/writers were/are there in existence?

From what I understand - which isn't that much more than a little bit of googling when I asked myself the very same question plus bad memory from old advertisements its somewhat like this:

Do you remember the old Adapters you used to have to switch Pal/NTSC and back? Basically you put that adapter into the Console Cartridge Slot and then inserted the actual cartridge into that Adapter to play.
Now with the same principle you could do a lot of things like for example use hex editing for cheats (action replay), implement additional memory (there was at least one cartridge that relied on an extra pack to run), utilize freeze savegames and last but not least dumping the cartridge on another media. Nowadays, it's probably the same, just more sophisticated and less clunky. I still remember the ads from back then though, those old things were huuuuge. Like in, three times the size of a SNES for example. I've read about those Pseudocartridges that can take a SD Memory Card and can be made to read out the content or something like that.

Anyways, if you're talking "ROM" there's a couple of different topics right there.

1) Old ROMs
2) New ROMs
3) ROM Modifications
4) Owned ROM Backups
5) Emulation

Each of these entails a different discussion, which one is it?
1. Old ROMs would be Roms of games you can't possibly buy anymore, outside of a collection value which is usually way over the top, what choices do you have? I mean you could skip the ROM entirely which spirals back into the Piracy Discussion that's happening right now. Legalwise it's piracy but I don't think there's that much of an ethical issue with old outdated games (kinda like Abandonware, although that's legally grey too).

2. New ROMs are different in my eyes as they're from systems which are actively developed and on the market. In this case it's even closer to Piracy, it basically IS piracy. And should be discussed in the same regard, which is happening. Even worse if you're using those Card Thingies to play them on your current handheld console.

3. Rom Modifications, also known as Hacks are crazy people doing mysterious things to games to turn them into a completely different game. The best example might be "Kaizo Mario" or the Super Metroid Hacks. They are quite popular and in these cases, there's no way they'll ever be marketed. What about these? They do require a ROM and on top of that they came to be due to reverse engineering of those ROMs?

4. see Eulas. It's basically legit to have a single copy but you mustn't bypass copy protection which basically nullifies itself right about there.

5. don't care about this topic tbh.

[s0]

ROM dumping devices are commercially available for a lot of cartridge based systems. People also build their own.

I remember reading a tutorial on how to turn a Pokemon Snap (I think) cartridge into an N64 ROM dumper ages ago.

[Richard Kain]

For any of the newer board members, Core Xii is an anarchist when it comes to intellectual property rights and software distribution. It is entirely pointless to argue, or even discuss such topics with him/her/it. Just don't bother, it is never worth it.

When it comes to ROMs, the one real line that you need to make sure you don't cross is financial profit. So long as you manage to avoid that, it is highly unlikely that you are ever going to be prosecuted. If you do turn a profit from the distribution of ROMs, then somewhere there is a record of it, and the IP holders will sick their lawyers on you with a vengeance.

This is why online distribution of ROMs has always been a bit of a grey area when it comes to legal considerations. People who distribute ROMs online for free are not actually profiting from their distribution. In fact, it could easily be argued that they are incurring an expense. (bandwidth and hosting) IP holders' usual approach is to send out Cease and Desist orders before any lawyers get directly involved, it almost never goes to court. Basically, don't sell ROMs, and no one is going to come breaking your door down.

I would still encourage you and everyone else to purchase software whenever it seems appropriate. If you have a Wii, take advantage of the Virtual Console. The emulation they use on that system is actually quite excellent. You will soon be able to purchase older games on the 3DS. Commercial re-makes and re-releases are often a good way to get at older games, including compilation packs. I have a copy of the Sonic Genesis Collection, and can recommend it. It costs $20 at most stores brand new, and has an enormous amount of great older games.

[s0]

I would still encourage you and everyone else to purchase software whenever it seems appropriate. If you have a Wii, take advantage of the Virtual Console. The emulation they use on that system is actually quite excellent. You will soon be able to purchase older games on the 3DS. Commercial re-makes and re-releases are often a good way to get at older games, including compilation packs. I have a copy of the Sonic Genesis Collection, and can recommend it. It costs $20 at most stores brand new, and has an enormous amount of great older games.

But I don't want to be limited to the Wii or 3DS or whatever system I purchased the re-release of a game for. ROMs are the superior choice because I can play them on a large number of different devices. I guess I'm not geeky enough to care about super accurate emulation as long as the game is playable.

What if I bought a VC game and then downloaded a ROM of that game to play it on my PC or PSP? I do the same with music all the time. I buy CDs, rip them to my computer and then mostly listen to the MP3 rips because it's more convenient (something I'm legally entitled to as well). Paying multiple times for the exact same game just to play it on a different device seems counter-intuitive to me.

[[RM8]]

I do appreciate perfect emulation, I'm a big fan of the Virtual Console. And really, I have a lot of GameCube controllers and those work great for N64 games, so I can fully enjoy the multiplayer mode in games like Mario Golf or Super Smash Bros. that would be really boring otherwise.

[Richard Kain]

But I don't want to be limited to the Wii or 3DS or whatever system I purchased the re-release of a game for. ROMs are the superior choice because I can play them on a large number of different devices.

A valid argument, to be sure. I would point you to something that Rm88 just pointed out. Playing older games is somewhat spoiled when you are using inferior controllers. One of the advantages of a service like Virtual Console is the options for controllers. The Wiimote itself feels pretty good for most NES games. The classic controller is very good for both NES and SNES games. The classic controller and GameCube controllers are solid options for N64 games. PC keyboards are usable for most games, but never feel as good. And although the 360 controller could probably be used for N64 games, its D-pad has always been piss-poor and would feel terrible on NES and SNES titles. Controller flexibility and feel are a major advantage for the Virtual console.

Yes, it would be much better if someone offered a ROM service that allowed for platform independence. Unfortunately, the majority of classic games that people download ROMs for were on Nintendo systems. And Nintendo are still in the hardware platform business. Until they become platform agnostic, this attitude toward classic-gaming being tied to specific hardware will likely continue.

A company like Sega would probably be much more open to the possibility.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

sega actually sells emulations of its genesis games on steam; there are sega packs where you can buy like 40 sega genesis games for 10$

[s0]

I personally hate holding the Wiimote sideways but what gives.

Anyway, there are USB adapters for most well-known controllers. Also, SNES and Megadrive games (for instance) work perfectly with almost any decent USB gamepad.

The N64 is a bit of a problem because of its odd layout and can't really be comfortably emulated with any other controller. The Gamecube one probably comes closest but it's not perfect either due to lack of C buttons.

Listen, I'm not saying ROMs are always the superior choice, just most of the time.

[s0]

@Paul: Yeah, but buying Sega games from Steam means you're limited to using them on PC. There's not even Mac support, let alone support for the PSP (which I play most of my ROMs on) and other systems.

Some of the same emulated Sega games exist on the iPhone appstore, but you have to purchase them separately from the Steam PC emulations (and the Wii emulations for that matter).

So yeah, it doesn't change the problem of platform dependence which I think is ridiculous and doesn't exist in any other entertainment medium to the same extent. Again, when I buy a game, the ability to play it on any device that supports it without having to purchase it again seems like it should be the norm. Kinda like with CDs, DVDs, VHS, cassette tapes, vinyl records etc. etc.

[Richard Kain]

Again, when I buy a game, the ability to play it on any device that supports it without having to purchase it again seems like it should be the norm. Kinda like with CDs, DVDs, VHS, cassette tapes, vinyl records etc. etc.

Well...yes and no. Since it is a digital format, it would be nice to be able to use it across devices. But unfortunately, most console games are originally designed for specific hardware configurations. This is part of the problem with Sega games available on the iOS and Android markets. Console games usually play like crap on touchscreens. They were designed for D-pad controllers, and play best on D-pad controllers. Shoehorning them onto controller-less devices just doesn't work.

Even though the software for a game can be run on any hardware powerful enough, it doesn't mean that it should. My cell phone could run just about any NES game, but I wouldn't want to play any of them on it. (tiny, clicky buttons and crappy round d-pad)

I suppose the ideal hardware for ROM emulation would be a USB controller with an HDMI port, emulators stored in permanent memory, and an SD card slot.

[Nix]

But when it does run on multiple platforms, you shouldn't have to pay for it more than once. That was his point.

[Richard Kain]

But when it does run on multiple platforms, you shouldn't have to pay for it more than once. That was his point.

Oh yeah, I get that. But who are you going to pay? In order for the kind of system you're describing to work, whoever is managing it has to make it available on multiple hardware configurations. That is to say, they have to relinquish all control over the hardware that their games will run on. Without some level of control over the hardware, there is no way to secure the downloaded ROMs from piracy. A service like Steam would get around this, but then what about handheld hardware that isn't constantly connected to the interwebs?

Apple is able to implement a system like this for their iOS because they DO have control over their hardware. A company like Nintendo couldn't pull off a system like this. It WOULD be nice if they could at least pull it off within their own hardware families. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

At the end of the day, the sheer licencing nightmare that a ROM pay-to-download system would represent keeps it from being realized. For my part, I think the best solution would be to found an on-line video game museum, and ask companies to "donate" their games for permanent preservation. (and thus approve free distribution) Sure, companies like Nintendo probably wouldn't go for it. But I know there are quite a few companies that would probably approve of their older titles being preserved in this fashion.

[s0]

To be fair though, there's been a few positive developments in this direction in the home computer sector. Both Humble Indie Bundles include Windows, Mac and Linux versions of each of their games. If you buy a multiplat game on Steam, you get to play it on both OSs. There are a bunch of others I'm too lazy to mention, but you catch my drift.

Of course I realize that consoles and Apple iDevices are much more "closed" platforms and the console market in particular is dominated by 3 rivaling hardware manufacturers who also happen to be software companies, so we're probably not gonna see, for instance, multiplatform Xbox 360/PS3 releases for the price of a single copy, but hey, one can dream.

[SirNiko]

As much as I want to support Nintendo, I have so many different copies of Metroid, Super Mario Bros and Ocarina of Time that at this point I feel like I should get them for free forever.

Honestly, when I heard that the Wii had Virtual Console I was kind of expecting Nintendo to pick out a list of their totally played out titles to give out for free to get people to hook up to the net and look at the product list. Fool me once, Nintendo!

What really perplexes me, though, is that Nintendo could follow the recent Capcom model and start making some official ROMhacks to put on the wii virtual console and people would seriously eat them up. I can't imagine why they haven't done this! Miyamoto could finally realize his dream of Yoshi appearing in the original SMB, or create a new Zelda title with the original graphics and a new world. It's obvious somebody at Nintendo has pitched this idea. Why wouldn't they go with it?

[[RM8]]

^ I remember they mentioning adding characters and modes to old games. There was an example of Wario appearing in Super Mario World if I recall correctly. It's a shame it didn't happen.