next »

[Hima]

The engine you use doesn't really mean much to the users unless it affect the game's quality in the way that they can notice. Almost all Japanese VN use game engines with customized skins (kirikiri, LiveMaker, etc.).

Also, many Japanese VNs are erotic games and use sex to sell their games. Even a game that has great story like Air or Kanon started off as a H-Game, before they establish enough to release an all-age version.

Piracy doesn't really have anything to do with this. If anything, VN players spend more money on the VNs they really love. Even when they don't buy the game, they spend money on something else that is game related and is a physical product that can't be copied easily. My relative sells Japanese figures, and these people who pirate the games are willing to spend $300 - 500 for a figure of the main character in the game imported from Japan. Some spend on art books from the game that cost around $50 - 100.

This is why I think that for Cinder, a VN that art style differ from all the main stream anime, featuring no erotic contents, and still make $6,000 in the first week is promising already.

With that said, Teegee, you should consider working on art book or behind the scene or something. I'm sure there'll be people who want it!

[TeeGee]

The engine you use doesn't really mean much to the users unless it affect the game's quality in the way that they can notice. Almost all Japanese VN use game engines with customized skins (kirikiri, LiveMaker, etc.).

Yeah. And in this particular genre quality of writing trumps all. Though, I would say that in this case the engine choice affects the quality in a noticeable way. That's one of the reasons we wanted to polish the main menu so much, make it all animated. When you download most Ren'Py VNs, you are welcomed by a static screen with the game's title. We wanted to create an impression that this is something different from the very start.

With that said, Teegee, you should consider working on art book or behind the scene or something. I'm sure there'll be people who want it!

We're pondering the art book idea, and the composer is working on an OST release. Gracjana (the artist) also runs a series of "The Making Of" articles on her blog.

[hanako]

When you download most Ren'Py VNs, you are welcomed by a static screen with the game's title.

... to be fair, when you download the vast majority of Game Maker games, the title screen you get isn't particularly lovely either.

It's not like RenPy title screens can't be animated. But it's a free engine that appeals strongly to a lot of people who can't program. Christine is one who tends to do quite a lot of customisation and many of her games do not look like the 'standard renpy game'.

Most of us who are in this commercially, though, don't have fulltime artists in our team and that does have a strong limit on what we do with fancy effects. Artists hired per-piece are only going to give you what you asked them for.

Obviously certain things are much easier in GM than in RenPy and the other way around, but neither is as limited as many people think on first glance.

[TeeGee]

In general, I'm very impressed with Ren'Py, especially with the built-in rollback feature and the ability to almost code the games in-flight. But from what I've heard from Celso, it's not designed for dynamic movement and transformations, it doesn't include features such as blend modes or particles, so it's generally harder to do animations and visual effects in it than in GM. Still, I've seen some very pretty stuff, like Dischan's games.

Though, my post wasn't really meant as a jab at the engine. More at the makers, maybe. Most commercial VNs look like "a Ren'Py game" to me for this or that reason. We wanted to avoid it, so I picked an engine that I know can be used to make some pretty stuff. Having an artist doesn't change much here. It's not like she does the coding, after all. I requested the main menu art, got it, and spent the time animating it. Could be contracted out just as well.

[hanako]

I'm not sure you understand what I was trying to say about having an artist around all the time. Having regular dialogue with someone fully committed to the project who can make suggestions and provide feedback produces a different sort of result than when a non-artist in charge has to invent everything, give artists precise assignments, and slot those pieces in unchanged. Nothing to do with an artist writing the code. But whatever, it's late at night, perhaps I'm not being sufficiently clear.

Blend modes and particles are not available by default, no. Requires a good bit of hackery to get them in, and unfortunately the engine is moving in the direction of making that even harder.

[TeeGee]

Oh, yes. In that sense, yeah. Though, I think it's also possible with outsourced art and no direct contact with the artist. Phantasmat and ArcMagi were being made with a contractor and they are still heavily animated. Takes some additional initial design and more detailed briefs, but I think it's an effort well spent. Menus are the first thing the player sees, so a proper "wow effect" helps a lot in building that first impression.

[jack_norton]

Particles are possible. See the magnificent rose petals in Always Remember Me main menu! 
Alpha blending not, but if pytom gets to add shaders support that will be possible+a bunch of other stuff. I know Spiky (hanako's coder) doesn't like to get away from software rendering because is incompatible with some Linux versions but ultimately you need to do what gives best resource to game creator. Supporting a very small userbase if has to sacrifice possible features is bad.
Also, I am not sure it's still the case with the new versions of Ubuntu and such (though I'm not a Linux expert at all!).

About what hanako says I agree completely, having a "in house" artist is one of the biggest advantage you can have. Recently had good luck with Loren interface artist too. I was very busy and he made a lot of buttons and images to improve the overall feel without even me asking.

Finally while animations are nice, if they have to delay the game by months or increase the budget a lot (generally speaking, not for Cinders) I am not really sure it's worth it from a commercial point of view

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

another advantage of coding it in GM vs ren'py that i can think of is if you want to code stuff like mini-games. e.g. hanako's fatal hearts probably couldn't have been as easily made in ren'py

[TeeGee]

I've seen some mini-games done in Ren'Py, so it's definitely possible.

Not sure if adding simple animations can significantly affect the budget or development time. Animating a backdrop in Cinders or Phantasmat usually took me an hour or two. The main menu took a day and maybe one more for polish and corrections. It generally takes less later in the project, as you can re-use a lot of code, particles, and decors.

[jack_norton]

another advantage of coding it in GM vs ren'py that i can think of is if you want to code stuff like mini-games. e.g. hanako's fatal hearts probably couldn't have been as easily made in ren'py

Well Loren Amazon Princess is a full RPG coded in Ren'Py Though I admit I went insane doing it and asked the help of an external coder (never did that before).
The only thing you can't do well in Ren'Py is stuff that requires lots of action, like a shooter, an arcade, and so on. I mean you can do it, but it would be stupid to use Ren'Py for such a game since there are better tools for that.

About the animations, I think is because you're used to do them Tom, so seems easy, but for example I wouldn't know where to start for the main menu. For other simpler animation like the in-game stuff yes (I'm going to do that in some future games).