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[AeornFlippout]

Hey all, I noticed there was quite a bit of discussion about FastSpring and a lot of you seem to use them.
We've been working with them for several days to setup our store page (they styled a checkout page to look like Flippfly.com = awesome)

However, just today we learned that they don't really like to do pre-orders the way we had hoped. That is - customer gives us money now, and we deliver the game when it's done. FastSpring is asking us to either provide them with a Beta download now, or they can withhold actual payment processing until the game is delivered. It's not exactly known yet whether a beta->full upgrade is something we'd have to handle, or if they can provide customers with a download code and notify them when we add a full version.

How have you guys who've used FastSpring handled it this kind of thing?

[CowBoyDan]

They probably dont want to deal with the refunds and angry customers when you dont deliver.  Refunds cost money.  And worse is when a customer disputes it on their credit card (a charge back, which can cost $40 fee per charge).

Lets put it this way, would you be wiling to front $40 collateral per sale as a guarantee that you'll finish the game and deliver? 

[AeornFlippout]

Yes, exactly right CowBoyDan - they explained as much to us.

Nevertheless - pre-orders as a means of funding development exists.  Just look at any Kickstarter.

What I'm wondering is: Are there any of you out there who have done preorders through FastSpring, and how do you handle them?
Do you include an unfinished Beta, and if so, how do you go about delivering the final product?
Maybe we should do it the Minecraft way, and require people to setup a user account, and the ability to download the latest at any time?

Or do you just suck it up and wait for the game to be finished before the money comes through?

Or is there something else I'm missing?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

do preorders through paypal or kickstarter, don't use fastspring

[AeornFlippout]

Thanks Paul. At the moment, we're not quite ready for the Kickstarter thing, though it may be a possibility in the future.

I keep hearing bad things about Paypal - but I must admit we've not looked too closely at that.
What we like about FastSpring is that there's not a step we have to complete for each and every purchase... And the fact that they handle the sales tax etc. is really nice as well.

[AeornFlippout]

Stories like this make me *really* weary of Paypal for this kind of thing:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/10/09/enemy-known-xenonauts-vs-paypal/

[CowBoyDan]

How close are you to actually delivering your game?

[AeornFlippout]

Not exactly sure how that's relevant to my question, but we're probably about 2 months from final release.

[CowBoyDan]

Its not, just asking.  Is this game race the sun?    Put up a standalone of the game you on the site, call it "Beta", problem solved.

[AeornFlippout]

Yep - Race The Sun.

Interesting idea, actually!
I'm not sure that'd be sufficient enough for the FastSpring folks since it'd clearly be available to the public... But an option worth looking into.

What we'd really like is a user authentication system where we can just add a person's purchased games to a list and offer them permanent download links after their purchase right on Flippfly.com... But we're not quite ready to dive into that level of web backend work yet.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

[CowBoyDan]

I think they are just concerned about people paying money and getting nothing in return.  You could use a license key scheme.  you just have to write it in php and stick it in the fullfillment option(not hard).  Thats what I did with my game.  Learn from my fail, use a private key to create the license key, then verify with the matching public key.  At least that way pirates wont be able to create a license key generator(like they did for mine).  Private key never occurs in the game code.  They can crack your game, but at least they won't get updates for free (they'll have to be cracked too).

My game was never hosted by fastspring, only my keygen.

[AeornFlippout]

I think they are just concerned about people paying money and getting nothing in return.  You could use a license key scheme.  you just have to write it in php and stick it in the fullfillment option(not hard).  Thats what I did with my game.  Learn from my fail, use a private key to create the license key, then verify with the matching public key.  At least that way pirates wont be able to create a license key generator(like they did for mine).  Private key never occurs in the game code.  They can crack your game, but at least they won't get updates for free (they'll have to be cracked too).

My game was never hosted by fastspring, only my keygen.

Interesting - So if I'm understanding you right - you offer a public download, which needs to be validated with a key to function?

[CowBoyDan]

Right, you can also code in limited functionality, like first n levels for free, when they finish prompt them to buy, send them directly to the fastspring buy page.  Essentially they are buying a key (code it with say their email address and your private key, make them enter their email and code that you generate, verify with the public key in the game).  You are essentially selling the result of this hash/encoding.  Goto their features page http://www.fastspring.com/features.php and read under Multiple Product Fulfillment Options.  I put my game up after level 8 or 10 was created, levels 1-4 were always available for free.  Game finished with 20 levels.

Copy and paste works in unity, so you can put in a "enter your key and email" popup in the game, they can just copy and paste from the email they receive (I think it shows on the page after purchase as well).

I like having the email as part fo the keygen, it doesn't prevent people from sharing the game with friends and family (which personally, i want, I'm more than happy for people to share as long as it is bought once), but prevent (or make them think twice) from posting it online.

You'll want to store the key after its entered into the game.. I dont recall exactly how I did it, but I set it up so its part of the system, so they can delete the game entirely and get a new version and the key is still present.  (and using unity default directories, not something goofy)  This also made it nice for me testing, since I have a key on my system I never have to enter it again.

Going off topic probably... I also put in a simple web check to check for simple file on my site containing a version number, on startup the game loads this, check against its own internal number, then puts in the top fo the screen that there is an update, and links directly from the game to the download page.  So whenever I got ready to put out a new version.. increase the number in the game, build mac and pc versions, zip them up, upload to my server, then replace the version.text with one with a higher number (I just used 1 2 3 4 5...)  then the game will report to them the new version, they download and keep playin.  No installer, prefs and such all happy regardless of where its run from on the machine.

Do the public private thing.  Otherwise when your game gets cracked 2 months after release (and it will), people will at least have incentive to buy it so they dont have to keep looking for a re-cracked newer version.  Put a tracker on your sites traffic, that way you can watch the chinese and russians hit your site, that'll be the first indication its been cracked.  Along with a huge number of views to you tube videos over night (they'll embed them right on their site)

[AeornFlippout]

Seriously helpful advice, thanks again!

I'll have to read up a bit more on public/private key security and how it works. If I'm understanding you correctly - there's no verification against a server, but rather a private key is generated based on the user's email, and the game uses the same algorithm for this key as the php script on FastSpring? Sorry I'm kind of a DRM noob.

I'm totally planning to do the version checking thing - it's next on my Trello board right after "implement daily objectives"

[CowBoyDan]

Public/Private is basically this.  They are large complex hard to figure out complimentary numbers, such that once you use one key to encrypt, the other key must be used to decrypt, and vise versa.  So I have a key and you have a key.  With this key I can lock a box, but my key cannot unlock a lock that i lock, so you must use your key to open it.  If you lock it with your key, I must use mine to open it.  So you keep one secret (private) and the other public (doesn't have to be REALLy public).  The keys are relatively impossible to guess or determine due the freakishly large prime numbers used to make them.

And its not really drm.  Its just verifying that your code made the key and that some crackers didn't.  Nothing prevents sharing, installing multiple copies, etc.  only a "shame" factor since part of the data required is their email address.  Crackers can still easily reverse compile your game and just remove the verify, have the function just return true.  The way you win is by releasing updates.  They might only bother cracking one version, (which will cause a lot of people to see and play your game, which is good).  The cracked version will probably still tell them when you update  the game, so they just might go download it.. and if they like it might be willing to fork over some money for the new content.  (I'm reasonably certain at least one pirate bought my game).  Remember.. you cannot stop them, so dont spend much effort trying.  Beyond learning how to do this private/public key stuff, it should only be a couple of lines of code, but... it might just give a pirate a reason to buy your game and be an honest person.

[Bambino2012]

Or, don't use Fastspring and use BMT Micro.
I used BMT Micro for the pre-orders of Gemini Wars , 2 months before the release, and I had no product for the clients to download, and there was no withholding of cash by BMT Micro.
But if you have any doubts that you can't release the game at the date you are proposing, just don't go on this route, it will damage your reputation as a developer.

[AeornFlippout]

Or, don't use Fastspring and use BMT Micro.
I used BMT Micro for the pre-orders of Gemini Wars , 2 months before the release, and I had no product for the clients to download, and there was no withholding of cash by BMT Micro.
But if you have any doubts that you can't release the game at the date you are proposing, just don't go on this route, it will damage your reputation as a developer.

We considered BMT quite a bit, but at the $5 price point, their minimum charge amounted to a much higher royalty than we wanted to pay.
Also - we're not promising a release date to our customers.

[Chris Koźmik]

I keep hearing bad things about Paypal - but I must admit we've not looked too closely at that.

I have looked through these horror stories about PayPal closely and upon more detailed investigation it seems to me all or at least most of these complains comes from shady businesses. The biggest uproar against PayPal occured several years ago when they withold funds of many pyramid schemess business (some of it by the request of the court). In my opinion, it should be held against PayPal that it took them so long to terminate these half-illegal or plain illegal/criminal accounts, not that they terminated them. I was unable to find any trace of even one legit business that was terminated by PayPal.

There is also a lot of whinning about their policy of freezing the funds for a week or so the first time you reach a certain thereshold the first time. But it is so minor and can be unfrozen so quickly (you just provide some simple scans of simple documents to prove you are who you claim to be) and it happens exactly once in lifetime that I consider this simply a whinning and nothing more.

I was also using PayPal for several years with minor problems only and (when it comes to low level payment processors) it is far, far less troublesome than all the others (I have 95% of sales volume via PayPal and only like 8% of problem cause by it total, yep, the reamining 5% of other processors I use generate 92% of problems which I find amusing :D).

I don't know how it compare to high level processors (that also provide other services, like BBT micro and fastspring), but among the low level basic ones PayPal is the best for sure.

[Hima]

You can also use Gumroad : http://www.gumroad.com

Gumroad doesn't charge much, and you can sell whatever you want. There is also an option to send http post to your web server with purchase information such as customer's email and price. It also allow you to setup a price as 'pay whatever you want' with a minimum of your choice.

Gumroad also save all of the customer emails for you, so you could also use that to send out your game later as well.

It doesn't accept paypal though. Credit card only. Although you get paid via paypal.

[AeornFlippout]

Yeah I can respect that Paypal works for some - in our case I think we're really happy with FastSpring's features and service so far.

So if I'm understanding the process for the email-based keygen:

1. You generate a public key and embed it in the game, and in the php script FastSpring uses.
2. You have some kind of algorithm to generate a private key based on the email address and this public key.
3. The game uses this same algorithm to validate itself sans internet, and essentially re-validates on launched because you're storing the user's private key/email pair locally.
4. You provide a public download link for the game, which is essentially locked until validated.

Do I have that about right? Also - are there any good keygen libraries/snippets you'd recommend?

Thanks for the help so far, this is actually a really fantastic solution for us!