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[GregWS]

CONGRATULATIONS EVERYONE!!! 

Absolutely wonderful list of finalists, and such a high degree of quality; could any of us have imaged that indie gaming would be here only a few years ago? 

I've got my preferences, but there's no reason to play favorites and take away from this overall good situation.*  Best of luck to all the finalists!!! 


*I do think it's worth noting, however, that I strongly believe PixelJunk Eden doesn't belong at the IGF, as the strong backing from Sony should disqualify it as independent.  I think it's an excellent game, and I have quite a bit of respect for Dylan Cuthbert as a game designer, but it's just not an indie game.


Haha, as you can tell by all these    I'm really happy about all this! 

[Alex May]

PixelJunk isn't backed by Sony, at least financially, unless you count money earned from doing other work for Sony. None of the PJ games are, apparently, directly funded by Sony. It's like if, imagine you're a freelance artist, and you make a shit load of money doing some odd jobs for EA or Disney or someone, and you can afford to take three months off to make an awesome painting oor something, that painting isn't funded by EA or Disney, but by you. Anyway, like some people said before, it's clearly a pro company with money to back their own game, so it's gonna be at least borderline for a lot of people.

[___]

Yeah but what if your painting gets into a museum, and then later there's a competition for paintings, and most of these paintings aren't in a museum, or haven't been seen by many people.  Would you still need to enter such a competition? ;p

[Guert]

Congrats to all!

[Edmund]

i think the pixel junk argument isnt as much about if they are indie as much as if they should have entered their game into the igf.

all their games are on console, all their games are getting a lot of attention/money and all of their games were made by a very large team of people.

personally if i was making large budget indie games with a large team of people and the game was already released on console and getting a lot of attention.. i think entering it the igf would be stealing from the indies smaller then me.

its really a moral standpoint, if they don't have a problem with taking money and exposure from indies who actually need it.. then good for them!

[GregWS]

Yeah but what if your painting gets into a museum, and then later there's a competition for paintings, and most of these paintings aren't in a museum, or haven't been seen by many people.  Would you still need to enter such a competition? ;p

That's my sentiment exactly.

[Kinten]

This picture is becoming more and more exciting for each IGF.

[Alex May]

i think the pixel junk argument isnt as much about if they are indie as much as if they should have entered their game into the igf.

all their games are on console, all their games are getting a lot of attention/money and all of their games were made by a very large team of people.

personally if i was making large budget indie games with a large team of people and the game was already released on console and getting a lot of attention.. i think entering it the igf would be stealing from the indies smaller then me.

its really a moral standpoint, if they don't have a problem with taking money and exposure from indies who actually need it.. then good for them!

Yes, I quite agree - the issue should be one of self-restraint. They don't ultimately need the further exposure or the further recognition. The only thing I'd say is that I don't believe the PJ games are done by big teams, but I haven't viewed the credits recently.

[Loren Schmidt]

Gah, I'm really excited about IGF this year.   

There's so much creative energy going on here it's incredible.

Congratulations to everyone who made it, I'm super excited to meet you and everybody else soon!!!!!!!!!

oh, I can't stop smiling 

Hey Erik- I think I congratulated everybody else already, so that leaves you. Congratulations on the nomination! I'm really excited about Blueberry Garden.

[Erik Svedäng]

Hey Erik- I think I congratulated everybody else already, so that leaves you. Congratulations on the nomination! I'm really excited about Blueberry Garden.

thanks =)

This picture is becoming more and more exciting for each IGF.

5/12 left... they are for next year

[Tommunism]

My two cents on the PixelJunk issue.

This whole argument about "PixelJunk shouldn't be in the IGF because they aren't indie" is stupid. "Indie" is a word, and to be honest, its a word that's getting thrown around a lot and it's really starting to irritate me. Who's "indie" who isn't "indie". I'm more "indie" than you! No you aren't I'M more "indie". Shut up already it doesn't matter. Replace the word "indie" with "retarded" and see how stupid the argument is. Q-Games is an independent developer...much like 2D Boy, Epic, Bethesda, Cryptic Sea, and Behemoth just to name a few. If you go high enough...every place is pretty much independently funded. So...this whole "They aren't indie enough for the IGF" crap is bullshit. By definition of "INDEPENDENCE" they are just as "indie" as everyone who's ever done anything by themselves ever.

The real issue here is a moral issue as far as I'm concerned. Q-Games stands to gain absolutely nothing from this with the exception of a potential trophy (woot), some money (which they probably won't make a dent in their budgets considering they have 3 games on PSN, develop tech stuff for Sony, and if the news is anything to be trusted have at least one PSP game coming out in 2009) and SOME exposure. PixelJunk Eden has been out since the end of July on the PSN. By showcasing this game at the IGF, they do not gain anything. Sony won't come up to them and go "hey have you ever considered putting this game on the PS3". Microsoft won't come up to them and go "Hey ever thought of Xbox" they will gain nothing out of this except exposure for an already published, already reviewed, already well known and respected game. That's the real issue here. They basically paid $100 to have a booth at GDC showcasing PixelJunk Eden and all the press that comes with being an IGF finalist...that's is a hell of a deal for $100. They took at least 3 slots from other lesser known/unknown developers that are quite possibly looking for the first big break that Q-Games got when they started their company. That's the issue here, not if they are indie or not....but more about if they should be in the IGF based on what each person perceives the spirit of the IGF to be.

To me...the spirit IGF has always been a way to showcase, innovative, well made, awesome, UNKNOWN games to people who would otherwise never see them or know about them. My perception may be different from another persons, but I really hope I'm on the right track, though with the addition of PixelJunk obviously there's a hole in my understanding of the IGF (on a small scale...seeing that all of the other finalists agree with for the most part). Showcasing the unknown and awesome...that's what I thought it was..and it's probably what it should be. Look at World of Goo. Amazing game, but who knew about it before IGF? I'm not talking about the people on these forums or those that follow Experimental Gameplay Project...I'm talking about the majority of people that purchased the game. They gained exposure from the IGF which ultimately helped them get to their well deserved position today. Granted, it was by no means what made them or their game what they are today, but it did help them and if anything it got the ball rolling by exposing their game to a mass audience. Look at Gish...Gish was unknown before IGF...and IGF put it in front of thousands and thousands of people. Look at Everyday Shooter, it was because it was on display at the IGF that it is on PSN and has done so well. Look at AudioSurf, look at Darwinia, look at Aquaria, the list goes on and on. This is what (at least I think) the IGF is about and this is why, I feel, that their 3 slots in the IGF Finals this year would be better used to propel another unknown developer into the spotlight. I feel that Q-Games entering their game in the IGF was not in the best taste. Independently funded yes...but again...so is Bethesda. Anyone wanna go up against Fallout 3 next year? How about Gears of War 3? How about a first party Capcom title? If the money is spent internally...then they are independent but you won't see those guys entering titles into the IGF.

I want a trophy for my efforts as much as the next guy, but if I'm successful (like Q-Games obviously is)...I think it would be time to squelch my superficial desires and step aside for someone else to take the spotlight. Not sure what Q-Games motivation was behind entering the IGF and I don't claim to know, but they seem very out of place in the IGF.

Anyways that's what I think of the issue. Congrats to all the finalists, I look forward to meeting you all at GDC this year!

Tommy

[rekcah]

My two cents on the PixelJunk issue.

This whole argument about "PixelJunk shouldn't be in the IGF because they aren't indie" is stupid. "Indie" is a word, and to be honest, its a word that's getting thrown around a lot and it's really starting to irritate me. Who's "indie" who isn't "indie". I'm more "indie" than you! No you aren't I'M more "indie". Shut up already it doesn't matter. Replace the word "indie" with "retarded" and see how stupid the argument is. Q-Games is an independent developer...much like 2D Boy, Epic, Bethesda, Cryptic Sea, and Behemoth just to name a few. If you go high enough...every place is pretty much independently funded. So...this whole "They aren't indie enough for the IGF" crap is bullshit. By definition of "INDEPENDENCE" they are just as "indie" as everyone who's ever done anything by themselves ever.

Well I understand your argument but at the same time I sort of disagree with it. Yes, technically, all of those game studios you mentioned ( Epic, Bethesda, Behemoth...etc) are "Independent", but I don't believe they are "Indie."

Too me, the word "indie" is like a slang word. It's like saying " Dude! This game is sweet!!". Technically a game isn't "sweet" because you can't taste it, but everyone knows what it means even though it's not the correct usage of the word.

When most people think of the words "indie game" they don't think of huge game studios or any well known game developers. They think of 2 guys (or girls) sitting down at starbucks saying " Hey... we should make a video game!". And, those same two guys spending countless hours of their life working on it.

I disagree when you say that Q-Games is independent in the same way that 2D-Boy is. After watching "The next great gaming gods" on gametrailers.com I realized a huge difference. Q-Games has their own studio in Japan! They also had several employees if not more! 2D-Boy is comprised of 2 guys in, what looked like, a coffee shop.... Yeah, technically both are independent game developers but I think that, eventually, everyone learns to draw the line when it comes to figuring if a developer is "indie" or not.... as if it was apart of our culture to know the difference.

By the way, if you want to check out "the next great gaming gods video" you can view it here: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/43681.html

[BMcC]

You don't actually disagree with him, rekcah.  You're saying basically the same thing.

The point is: Q-Games is technically independent, so they could technically enter the competition... but it's a violation of the spirit of the thing.  (And kind of a dick move!)

[Alex May]

My two cents on the PixelJunk issue.

This whole argument about "PixelJunk shouldn't be in the IGF because they aren't indie" is stupid. "Indie" is a word, and to be honest, its a word that's getting thrown around a lot and it's really starting to irritate me. Who's "indie" who isn't "indie". I'm more "indie" than you! No you aren't I'M more "indie". Shut up already it doesn't matter. Replace the word "indie" with "retarded" and see how stupid the argument is. Q-Games is an independent developer...much like 2D Boy, Epic, Bethesda, Cryptic Sea, and Behemoth just to name a few. If you go high enough...every place is pretty much independently funded. So...this whole "They aren't indie enough for the IGF" crap is bullshit. By definition of "INDEPENDENCE" they are just as "indie" as everyone who's ever done anything by themselves ever.

Well I understand your argument but at the same time I sort of disagree with it. Yes, technically, all of those game studios you mentioned ( Epic, Bethesda, Behemoth...etc) are "Independent", but I don't believe they are "Indie."

Too me, the word "indie" is like a slang word. It's like saying " Dude! This game is sweet!!". Technically a game isn't "sweet" because you can't taste it, but everyone knows what it means even though it's not the correct usage of the word.

When most people think of the words "indie game" they don't think of huge game studios or any well known game developers. They think of 2 guys (or girls) sitting down at starbucks saying " Hey... we should make a video game!". And, those same two guys spending countless hours of their life working on it.

I disagree when you say that Q-Games is independent in the same way that 2D-Boy is. After watching "The next great gaming gods" on gametrailers.com I realized a huge difference. Q-Games has their own studio in Japan! They also had several employees if not more! 2D-Boy is comprised of 2 guys in, what looked like, a coffee shop.... Yeah, technically both are independent game developers but I think that, eventually, everyone learns to draw the line when it comes to figuring if a developer is "indie" or not.... as if it was apart of our culture to know the difference.

Well part of Tommy's point was that defining what "indie" means is a bit silly, so to write a whole post about what the word itself means to you personally is kind of missing the point IMO.

Tommy's post and Edmund's (and Jon Mak's from last year actually) have a great point - it's about how much you need the competition over how independent you are, since the latter is a very clear cut distinction. And BMcC is right, you're simply agreeing with Tommy anyway.

[rekcah]

My two cents on the PixelJunk issue.

This whole argument about "PixelJunk shouldn't be in the IGF because they aren't indie" is stupid. "Indie" is a word, and to be honest, its a word that's getting thrown around a lot and it's really starting to irritate me. Who's "indie" who isn't "indie". I'm more "indie" than you! No you aren't I'M more "indie". Shut up already it doesn't matter. Replace the word "indie" with "retarded" and see how stupid the argument is. Q-Games is an independent developer...much like 2D Boy, Epic, Bethesda, Cryptic Sea, and Behemoth just to name a few. If you go high enough...every place is pretty much independently funded. So...this whole "They aren't indie enough for the IGF" crap is bullshit. By definition of "INDEPENDENCE" they are just as "indie" as everyone who's ever done anything by themselves ever.

Well I understand your argument but at the same time I sort of disagree with it. Yes, technically, all of those game studios you mentioned ( Epic, Bethesda, Behemoth...etc) are "Independent", but I don't believe they are "Indie."

Too me, the word "indie" is like a slang word. It's like saying " Dude! This game is sweet!!". Technically a game isn't "sweet" because you can't taste it, but everyone knows what it means even though it's not the correct usage of the word.

When most people think of the words "indie game" they don't think of huge game studios or any well known game developers. They think of 2 guys (or girls) sitting down at starbucks saying " Hey... we should make a video game!". And, those same two guys spending countless hours of their life working on it.

I disagree when you say that Q-Games is independent in the same way that 2D-Boy is. After watching "The next great gaming gods" on gametrailers.com I realized a huge difference. Q-Games has their own studio in Japan! They also had several employees if not more! 2D-Boy is comprised of 2 guys in, what looked like, a coffee shop.... Yeah, technically both are independent game developers but I think that, eventually, everyone learns to draw the line when it comes to figuring if a developer is "indie" or not.... as if it was apart of our culture to know the difference.

Well part of Tommy's point was that defining what "indie" means is a bit silly, so to write a whole post about what the word itself means to you personally is kind of missing the point IMO.

Well, I didn't intend to write a post about what I thought the word meant. I wrote about what I believe people think of when they read/hear that word. I agree that it's silly trying to define it. But, I feel that he's saying that there is no a difference between developers such as 2D-Boy and Bethesda. And if that's what hes implying then I disagree. If we cant tell the difference, and the lines blur then I don't think the IGF will attract the same type of developers that it once did.

Yes, I'm sure almost everyone agrees that it was in poor taste for Q-Games to enter but at the same time if the IGF judges allowed it... why not? Maybe they need to define indie spirit for us instead of letting us figuring it out for ourselves?

[Levin]

its really a moral standpoint, if they don't have a problem with taking money and exposure from indies who actually need it.. then good for them!

Totally agree 

[sillytuna]

re: Q Games

I was very surprised to see them in the list because I wondered why they'd submit in the first place.

The answer is simple, and is faced by the likes of near annual nominees Behemoth and Grubby Games. Almost all the awards in the games world are for big budget games, and those awards are often decided semi-politically or with internal votes (I know, I get to vote for one set of awards).

Meanwhile, the IGF was set up to promote and reward those on the other end of the spectrum.

There is a big gap for "independent" games from the likes of Q Games. There was no gap before because this market didn't exist until very recently. The IGF is having to stretch from 1 man bands to the likes of Q Games.

I disagree with people who think Q Games have nothing to gain. Its very difficult to get publicity for these smaller games; many mainstream gamers still haven't heard of Castle Crashers, Braid or the Pixeljunk series.

Awards help get publicity, sales, future projects, and funding. The myth is that once you get going then it's easy. It isn't, you get other complications, and in fact it can be even harder because you have to actually make a living from it.

Both new developers starting out and existing small indie devs need the boost that IGF offers.

All this makes it difficult for the IGF but I do believe that the judges will take everything into account when making their decisions.

[Alex May]

Yes, I'm sure almost everyone agrees that it was in poor taste for Q-Games to enter but at the same time if the IGF judges allowed it... why not? Maybe they need to define indie spirit for us instead of letting us figuring it out for ourselves?

That's the bottom line, really yes. The IGF ask you when you enter to self-apply the term and see if it fits you. If you feel your game is in the 'indie spirit' (and there is a short description) then you tick a box and enter. So in the end, financially the game is independent, and the developers feel they are indie, and the IGF is fine with that, so there it is.

As I was saying to some people, probably on IRC but really I forget where, these things change over time, and already there are many many more entrants than in previous years, so the competition itself is becoming more popular. Also the independent games scene is ballooning out to include all sorts of companies. Personally I feel that the fact PixelJunk and You Have to Burn The Rope are in there is indicative of how diverse the range of independent game development has become, but I still agree about the underdog / moral point with respect to PixelJunk (I think they're doing fine out of it - could be wrong in which case that changes things probably - and sure, it was a risk for them but it paid off and they should be proud of that).

[Anthony Flack]

I think that World of Goo demonstrates that 2 guys in a coffee shop are more than capable of competing with Q-Games or whoever. PixelJunk Eden is going to have to be a helluva good game to win this competition.

I assume that the IGF will be judged in the spirit of the IGF: that bigger isn't always better. I kind of feel that the indie scene has come to represent the art-house wing of the game industry now; we don't need to think of the IGF as a charity case for underprivileged developers. It should be a damned prestigious award; the competition is fierce.

We all believe that indie games and small games can be just as good as big, expensive ones, if not better, yeah? All the money in the world will not make you the best indie game of the year. It's still within reach of a single person with no money, if their work is good enough.

[Tommunism]

Maybe they need to define indie spirit for us instead of letting us figuring it out for ourselves?

I couldn't agree with you more. I think a lot of the regulations and rules for the IGF need to be rewritten for the times. Things have changed quite a bit in the 11 years since the festival started. The term "successful" and "independent developer" were, for the most part, mutually exclusive around the time of the first IGF...and now that's hardly the case...I'm looking at you World of Goo:)

Basically what I was saying when comparing 2D Boy, Q-Games, and Epic is that they are basically the same. By definition of the word independent, they all fall into that category which basically means they are reliant on themselves and their internal teams and resources without external support. Though, Q-Games is self funded, PixelJunk Eden is published by SCEA (for the US version) which..I don't understand how they are self funded with a publisher and I would like to know how something like that works just out of curiosity.

Though I do think there needs to be some clarification in the IGF, I don't blame the IGF or the judges for putting it through, though had I been a judge of Eden I would have said..."Uhh..this game doesn't need our help"..but again that's me and my personal views on what I feel the IGF should represent...but it isn't my festival so I don't call the shots or set the guidelines. I'm actually not sure what guidelines, if any aside from the title of the category the game is being judged, the judges are required to follow when scoring an entry. I don't think Eden should have been submitted in the first place. It's a cool game, but it just seems out of place in the IGF. I don't quite understand Q-Games motives here and I hope this isn't becoming a trend for other more successful developers to slide in and take spots from independent developers trying to make a name for themselves.

Tommy