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[starsrift]

The message that the writer of the imaginary chat sent from both sides of the argument seems to be that pictures of men aren't sexy.

The idea that women don't like muscles is a myth. In daily life skin & muscles a sign of good health, would provoke inter-gender conflict, across the board decisions based on attraction and danger, same with any other physical traits would take precedence over cultural value.  People don't want to admit their instincts are animal and constantly biased. A myth like this promotes the idea that wealth and status are a man's cultural significance, and not his image, or his health.

Probably better just to say that pop culture hasn't managed to fetishize men into a common point of 'attractiveness' yet - make them sex objects. Both ladies and men are attracted to a whole lot of different types of people. Including those with little visible musculature.

[Pfotegeist]

A bunny kissing your hand is clearly indulgent. It would create emotions that I don't think people are used to.

Perhaps I drew it just for this

If we saw this in a video game we probably wouldn't second guess what the image is for, endearment. However, had it been a stranger, or a relative, a friend of either gender, or someone you like, these things would bring about a more socially visible ethical conflict and questions about dignity than an excited cute bunny.

[gimymblert]

If you are not a woman you can't speak about absolute about woman, and it's all about nuance, nobody said woman don't like muscle, most woman said they prefer lean muscle over bulky muscle (kratos vs baltier), that's a nuance, and muscle alone isn't enough. You can also have thin guy with well define muscle as in boys band.

[Faust06]

I'm going to call you stupid on that one, there you can put that against me now Wink

I was gently pointing at how you were doing reductio ad absurDUM. I took great care of not adressing the objectivity trap because just because something isn't 100% objective does not mean it does not have SOME objectivity. Like I said there is a definite and measured basis.

Let me pull you back to what I actually contested, which is your argument that aspects like agency and gaze for one make the creepyness factor more objective (objective creepiness would not always be outlandish an idea as we can infer that humans may react similarly to certain stimuli, but we're talking about sexual depiction, which pushes boundaries every generation, and is a whole other can of worms, and even so, a consensus from a sample population isn't necessarily objective... we know little). I pointed out that those are also subjective factors, so I would quibble with a statement like "I think she has agency, therefore she is objectively less creepy". You've proceeded to waste time with a red herring and name-dropping fallacies like blunt instruments instead of just elucidating why exactly you think those can be objective, or "partly" objective and we could have "gently" parted shortly thereafter. It's not a huge mental leap, man. I'm particularly tickled that you're laying the appeal-to-authority fallacy on me and "shouting down" considering the large makeup of your posts, and I'm sure the irony is lost on you. Saying "go read these random entries, I'm not making an argument" is an appeal to authority, inappropriate, cowardly, and nowhere does that fly as a legit argument. If you know what you're talking about, you can say it yourself.

Also there is the logical fallacy of equating everything as subjective therefore my subjectivity is best, making a false equivalence to in fact put one as better than the other ( x = y therefore I stand by x over y) which is common here. I mean the reason I said that is that I precisely choose 2 links you certainly didn't look at, I mean one defend dead or alive in very precise term, outlining precise difference using objective terms, and so is the second who is praising a porn parody of bioshock infinite involving elizabeth, which again detail the rational.

No. Nowhere did I state or even allude to the notion that my subjective experience is better, and in fact I'm arguing against that idea by bringing in question objectivity. Did I mention half the shit you write is incomprehensible drivel?

My answer therefore is to point at the fact you ask for data and overlook the data provided, which is, if I were doing a true ad hominem, very dishonest of you and show you don't care but bend the argument your ways without having to substantiate it. In fact you aren't making argument, you are asking question and looking preemptively to shout down any argument whatever their substance, placing you in a supposed position of authority, it's a common rhetorical tactics.

Uh huh. If you don't understand that telling someone they're an art noob and "taking mental shortcuts" is attacking someone's character and not the argument there's not much helping you. You made the choice to project shit instead of debating so own up to it.

most woman said they prefer lean muscle over bulky muscle (kratos vs baltier)

I think you just "spoke absolute about woman".

What I'm saying is there's really no end to this conversation. It'll go on for eternity.

Probably. That's how culture changes, public sentiment is not set in stone.

tho if im really honest about this, i think the "censorship/freedom" angle is often used by people as a red herring or a derailing tactic. im not convinced that e.g. most gamergaters really care about the "freedom" of developers.

Yeah they behave like an interest group.

[gimymblert]

I don't thrust you faust, you pull a fake ad hominem on me then I warn about a slippery slope, and you did the slippery slope, where else can we go? It's all too common a pattern, we have seen that with men who beat their wifes and cops who kill black children. There I don't feel taking mental shortcut is an attack when you gloss over facts given to you, so that's subjective or objective, whatever float your boat, you are not interested and I'm not anymore.

[Diabetes Forecast]

Probably better just to say that pop culture hasn't managed to fetishize men into a common point of 'attractiveness' yet - make them sex objects. Both ladies and men are attracted to a whole lot of different types of people. Including those with little visible musculature.

Do... Do you ever take a cursory look at the covers of novels meant for women? I mean, even the stuff inside gets VERY creepy, but the covers are pretty telling!
I mean hell, we have two wildly popular series of books: one about glowing prettyboy vampires and one about general fetishes written by women, for women.

[gimymblert]

boys band

However notice that those are hold to lower standard in general, because women ... except in asia

[Superb Joe]

[starsrift]

Probably better just to say that pop culture hasn't managed to fetishize men into a common point of 'attractiveness' yet - make them sex objects. Both ladies and men are attracted to a whole lot of different types of people. Including those with little visible musculature.

Do... Do you ever take a cursory look at the covers of novels meant for women? I mean, even the stuff inside gets VERY creepy, but the covers are pretty telling!
I mean hell, we have two wildly popular series of books: one about glowing prettyboy vampires and one about general fetishes written by women, for women.

I was going to mock you with a Christie Sims novel cover but I'm just gonna facepalm. 

[Diabetes Forecast]

For every sexy lady novel cover there is an equal amount of buff half naked cowboy cover that no guy can live up to. (I've seen so many of those at work it's not even funny)
Just because guys don't make a big deal over it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Also... isn't Christie Sims a lady too? Wikipedia says that but I dunno if i can trust anything that's a footnote on there. (what an amazing career in making 'Dinosaur Erotica' though.)

[Torchkas]

probably not an equal amount.

remember that being attractive as men means empowerment most of the time, whereas for women that's rarely the case.

[Dragonmaw]

Also niche media does not represent general media trends.

[absolute8]

It's cool to see a thread about this subject that hasn't turned into an all out flame war. So yay for everyone talking about this like adults.

Ever since this Gamergate thing came about, I've been doing a lot of thinking about the issue of sexism/sexuality in games. I'm a woman, but I love fan service. I like anime like Golden Boy and Ah! My Goddess. I play hentai games. I'm also a feminist. Which may or may not make sense to some people. But basically, this is how I've come to think of it:

Most people would agree that Video games are an art form. And I would agree. It's a new medium for being able to express thoughts, feelings, and points of views that you can share with an audience. It's another way to tell a story. Like paintings, books, film and more, we are expressing and sharing experiences with others through creative means.

Like any other Art form, art has always been personal and political. It has also been commercial and superficial. Some take their craft and really want to do something meaningful with it, to make a statement or convey a strong sense of empathy. Others are taking the craft and just making something fun with it. Not a lot of in depth thought or messages or whatever, just something they think is enjoyable. Both of these are totally cool.

The issue here I think, is that it's rare that the in depth, personal and meaningful art gets made into widely consumed media. It's usually the light hearted, just for fun stuff that we mainly see day in and day out, unless we go and actively search for something different.

Which is fine. I think if you don't like something, then you can find something you DO like. The problem though is, is when the mainstream media stuff fills up so much of your experiences, that even though the people who made those things might not have really been trying to say anything with it, or just made it for fun, it has a very real impact on their audience. Sometimes, you keep seeing tropes and stereotypes so often that they begin coming off as facts. And that can be an issue. More so for some than others, but I think it does impact everyone on some level.

Video games are the same way, there have been mainstream commercial hits that most people consume, and there's plenty of other more meaningful games out there that you simply have to do a little digging for if you want them.

This has become a bit long winded, so I'm going to try and sum up by saying this: Mainstream media is always allowed to make whatever they want, and should. BUT, they should also be AWARE of the real power and impact they have on their audiences. Trying to censor art is bad, but telling an artist "hey, just so you know, this is really racist/sexist/whatever" is cool too.
Not everyone is aware of their own bad habits or judgments. Sometimes people need it pointed out to them. I know I needed it, and most likely still do from time to time. Nobody is brought up with a completely open and non-judgmental mind. Yeah, we're born that way, but everything around us as we grow up helps us form judgments and opinions that are not always true or right. And our media plays a hand in that.



TL;DR : Games are art and can be made however the creator wants. However, that doesn't mean the creator is always aware of the messages they're sending. Censoring art is bad, but pointing out that it's crappy for whatever reason is good.

  YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! You made this thread so worth it with a singular post! Thank you!

[Diabetes Forecast]

probably not an equal amount.

remember that being attractive as men means empowerment most of the time, whereas for women that's rarely the case.

Is THAT what I'm supposed to feel towards those? Gosh, and all this time I thought I was supposed to feel really awkward seeing those. I've been doing this all wrong my whole life!

[TamaraRyan]

Haha, thanks! The added Golden Boy image is amazing. ^^


Since the conversation has shifted into men being sexualized, I'll go ahead and throw in another 2 cents. It's funny, because after chatting yesterday on here, I was thinking about a kind of role reversal.

I was thinking that if there were an equal amount of games with men being sexualized, we wouldn't hear as much complaints from the women. I would be curious if there was a game similar to Lollipop Chainsaw, but you get to pick between a man and a woman. Both characters would remain overly sexualized, but now you just get a preference. How well would the game be received? A little ogling is fun for both sexes. As long as the character remains in a position of being in control and not being demeaned within the game, things should be cool.

Also, as far as preferences go, I would love to be able to customize body type, because yeah not everyone likes an Anorld bod.

On a side note, usually when people suggest a sexualized man in a game, they usually start thinking how it would be for gay men. Because, mainly guys pay games right? However, like in the other thread on here points out, more women play PC games these days. The quicker we can accept women as actual gamers and not just mobile casuals, the quicker developers/marketers will feel better about having more options for the ladies.

[absolute8]

Ok, to recap, the following ideas have been discussed and proposed:

1.The overabundance of overtly sexual female characters in portrayal(all fem sexy or gtfo, basically)

2. The discriminatory dominance of majority male characters in games (minorities not given major roles for fear of cognitive dissonance amongst gamers)

3. The comercialization of female sexuality for gratuitous pourposes (AAA largest offender)

4. The absense of male sexualization in respect to the female gaze.(Our muscular power fantasy characters do not make the cut.ladies want the Ryan Gosling or something)

5. Negative objectification (briefly touched on, but diverse information referenced by Dacke)

6. Superb Joe

7. Some passive cross-comparisons to racism

8. Is Bayonetta sexist or sexy?

9. Will equal sexualization betwixt genders bridge the sexism issues? (Idunno lol, but it could be potentially enlightening and hilarious watching people figure it out)

Alright, does anyone have a series of concise and profound resolutions or ideas for these ...things?

Go...

[absolute8]

From an artistic standpoint, I think it would be difficult for a straight male developer to honestly depict a sexy male character for the following reasons:

1. Lack of deeper understanding for what females find sexy.

2. Lack of an honest interest in the aesthetic depiction of sexy male characters.

These two points actually mesh pretty well into one another. Females have a greater understanding of what men deem sexy because it is before their face daily. Guys, on the other hand, don't have such an insight into the female gaze.

Just look at the past page examples. The images of male characters clad in feminine clothes and poses were likely for jest, but they are a decent reflection on the reality.

Men are visual creatures for the most part, women, from what I've learned, aren't primarily visual when it comes to consuming sexually arousing content. Case in point, Playgirl magazine popularity in comparison to Playboy.
Meanwhile, females tend to consume more literary sexual content like erotic novels.

I infer that females are turned on primarily by the scenario and the content of the material and the visual second.

[TamaraRyan]

I infer that females are turned on primarily by the scenario and the content of the material and the visual second.

I would have to agree with this. Of course I can't speak for all ladies. I have friends who like to look at naked boy pictures, but I never saw the appeal. I get WAY more giggly and blushy when there's flirting in the game, or lots of talk about sex. But just looking at a dude doesn't really get me going. Well...most of the time anyways. Unless it's Brock O Hurn putting up his glorious hair in a manbun....

In regards to developers not knowing how to make male characters for ladies, I would simply say, hire more women. More and more women everyday are getting into gamedev. At the moment, there are still cases where it can be a hostile environment for them. So hopefully we can move past that and make it a more welcoming place.

[gimymblert]

If I refer to what I read from VARIOUS sex positive feminist in gaming, that's wrong that "women" aren't visual or need context.

The main difference is social pressure, women are educate to repress their desire more, so they use more justification, also because encounter with a male can be dangerous (see what happen to Zoe because she broke some bloke's heart) context is more important (ie the need to feel safe). Men typically don't think much about being threaten by their random encounter. But women aren't as well served that men when it come to pervasive sexual imagery. Also men are not coerce by society to look good for women unlike women in which there is a pressure to be pretty to meet success.

Then there is personal preference, upbringing, culture that factor in it too. Generally confident women (ie don't feel threaten by potential mate) are bias toward looks just like men.

I'll defer to Tamara for confirmation or not based on her experience with other woman though

ALSO ABSOLUT8 YOU MISSED ONE MAIN POINT OF DIVERSITY  :



Different shape, form, color etc ...

One major critic is not just the sexy, BUT ONLY ONE KIND OF SEXY. In fact this is the source of the most disgust and hatred around women depiction, not just the over the top sexyness in itself.

[gimymblert]

A former employee speaks about sexism and hostility in the industry
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1138967