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[fish]

why wasn't the flashlight pointing in the direction of movement?

that was really annoying.

[AdamAtomic]

Good things about the flashlight facing backward: You can always see the fish and the bubbles, so aesthetically that is nice (since hte fish are important!).  Also its weird!

Bad things: you can't see a F'ing thing where you are going, which is not great for gameplay

So again, not defending the decision, but I ultimately decided that it would be more interesting, though maybe not better, to go with the aesthetic decision?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

see above -- i think it added to the creepiness of being deep underwater, even though it made navigation harder; it wouldn't have been as scary to go through the darkest areas if you could see it. also, the last dark area is apparently the same as the first area (just underwater), and that'd have been much more obvious if you could see where you were going, which would have ruined the surprise when you figure it out.

[BMcC]

It sounds like people going into the game with an expectation are the ones who came out liking the game the least.

I think this is very true. I played the game because I thought 'Ooh, old-school platformer!' ...

Read my post next time?

... I'm more inclined to believe it's the latter, and I'm inclined to believe there are a few people in the latter who saw Fathom as an art/experimental game, saw a lot of people enjoying it and decided to go "me too." ...

"This game is not as good as people say it is." Etc.

Stop calling people liars.  You not liking it (or not getting it, or whatever) is not evidence of other people pretending to.

[Ted]

I appreciated the art and the music.  Sure I do agree about the ending, but it was still fun to play and is definitely a good demo.  This would be great as a full game with many levels and a nice story.  You've got the art, music and engine nailed so you're most of the way there  .  Though I'm sure you guys have your hands full with freelance and other projects.

At the very least it serves as a great demo of what Flixel™ can do.  Looking forward to checking it out in 'a few weeks'.

[NathanielEdwards]

That was part of it, yes. But the level was designed so all the walls have snags, which made traversing the area difficult unless you have mastered that type of control scheme. And the light was facing the wrong direction, making navigating through dark areas slow and tedious.

Weren't the underwater bits procedurally generated?

Anyway, I said earlier that I think the underwater maze needed to take some time to navigate for the game's pace to work, even though some people find that irritating. Otherwise, everyone's reaction would probably be "WTF, I was running, then swimming, then I died? FAIL."

[AdamAtomic]

Otherwise, everyone's reaction would probably be "WTF, I was running, then swimming, then I died? FAIL."

Yeah I avoided that minefield completely 

[NathanielEdwards]

Otherwise, everyone's reaction would probably be "WTF, I was running, then swimming, then I died? FAIL."

Yeah I avoided that minefield completely 

I guess that is pretty similar to a lot of people's reactions anyway, but, well, you would have had less supporters with a five-second game with no need for exploration or challenge.

[JoeHonkie]

I don't see the controls as bad, I think they work perfectly. What didn't you like about the controls? Was it just that it used a solar jetman type scheme, or something else?

Solar Jetman has more spacious and relatively more interesting levels.  I didn't want to be slowed down with something like that in such a repetitive and maze-like environment.  That part of the game would have been more enjoyable if it had been shorter, and I felt like navigating with those controls was slow and messy.  Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: Saw Soulliard's comment.  That makes sense, but I'm not sure I personally appreciated the end result.

[Anthony Flack]

I don't know. I think the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

I don't think this game was ever claiming to be the emperor, though.

It's a 10-day project that runs in a browser, takes a few minutes to play, and raises a few interesting points for discussion. A lot of the criticisms of the game seem to stem from the position that it should have been a fully-resolved work. I see it more as an interesting sketch.

[Ixis]

@Paul Eres
While you were comfortable with the control scheme, it's not one that is easily accessible to other people, especially in that setting. In Aquaria getting about is easy and intuitive (the game was designed that way.) Fathom wasn't.

NOW, if you wanted to make a great argument, you can bring up something Brainy Gamer said about Braid, the lack of skills to play a game. Braid uses basic platformer controls (it was made to mimic Super Mario.) It however doesn't teach the player how to move about effectively in such a way, and instead assumes the player has already played enough platformers to know how to get around. This means that Braid is an "art game" that cannot be played to its full potential by anyone who has not previously mastered run-n-jump gameplay. Brainy Gamer then brings up the question of what this means for non-gamer people, should they be locked out of an enriching or artistic experience because they don't know how to play. I forgot what his final position was, but I felt it was akin to how art is down nowadays anyway (without proper knowledge of art history you won't understand the importance or significance of impressionism, or if you're not familiar with film you won't appreciate Citizen Kane the same way a film buff would.)

That said there's still the "old-switcheroo" being used in Fathom which raises further questions as, undoubtedly, people who will pick it up and play it may or may not have the skillset required to enjoy it. I suppose I should retcon my statement to "the controls are obtrusive to players not already familiar with them." I found no problem with the way the flashlight worked however, and it made sense to me and I liked how it worked (it felt more realistic or natural I suppose.)

@BMcC
I'm not sure which quote you're referring to, as you've only written about a possible bug and thanking Adam once and other small comments here and there. Nothing bad, I just don't understand what you mean about reading your posts.

Regardless, I actually think you should read my posts since you seem to have come to some incorrect conclusion about my feelings on this game. But since you're a global mod I expect you don't have time to read everything, I've been a mod for forums a few times before and I understand this, so I'll sum up and reiterate what my opinions are:

1.) I like Fathom, and it's the kind of game I personally would want to make.
2.) If I were to make a game like Fathom it would be an experiment to see how people react to it. My actions so far have only been to promote discussion about what Fathom is and what people feel about it.
3.) It is my personal opinion (expressively stressing this being an opinion) that some people who say they enjoy art games do so because they want to appear cool or hip or artistic/deep/interesting/whatever. This is only an opinion based on my own personal experiences. I'm not saying anyone in this thread, or even this site are liars and I cannot prove it.
4.) I am a person who likes art games, and likes Fathom. As such I know for a fact that most people will not fall into my suspicions raised in point 3.
5.) I make no claims that I am right, or that I know my opinion as fact, and I have never supported it as such. However the door is open if you would like to prove my unproven opinion incorrect.

[BMcC]

... I'm not sure which quote you're referring to, as you've only written about a possible bug and thanking Adam once and other small comments here and there. Nothing bad, I just don't understand what you mean about reading your posts. ...

I meant the front page news post.  I was totally forgetting how big the forums are now, though, and that there might be people who saw the game here first!  Sorry.

... Regardless, I actually think you should read my posts since you seem to have come to some incorrect conclusion about my feelings on this game. ...

Right you are!  Sorry again.

I was extending my frustration with front-page shenanigans onto here.  I saw that line about people pretending to like certain games and it jumped out at me as another one of those annoying "this game isn't as good as everyone says" kinds of posts.

... I make no claims that I am right, or that I know my opinion as fact, and I have never supported it as such. However the door is open if you would like to prove my unproven opinion incorrect.

Nice. :D

[Ixis]

Sorry, I will admit my post was a little hostile, as I like art games, but don't quite like all art gamers. The people here are all awesome though.

[Corpus]

So, wait, are the fish important? As far as I could tell, they were just swimming in a slowly rotating figure 8.

[Garthy]

(Removed comments as it's simply not worth the aggro)

[Alex May]

I liked this a lot, but I have problems with how unlinked the elements are - why am I planting a tree to go further for instance? that seems to be falling into the same trap that the games that are being deliberately left behind are guilty of themselves. I had a similar problem with the ending - I have no problem with the ending as such, but it doesn't scan, there's not enough meaning conveyed there. I think I would have been less confused if I were swimming downwards instead of upwards, as upwards implies going back to the surface (Today I Die as an example) and living, whereas going down into the darkness implies death.

If you want to ensure people don't go back searching for other endings, you could put "The End" at the end, or use something else that is associated with the termination of a linear story.

[NathanielEdwards]

If you want to ensure people don't go back searching for other endings, you could put "The End" at the end, or use something else that is associated with the termination of a linear story.

There's very little you could do to make sure people knew the ending was final. If he had the message "The End", that would be as close as you could get, but also wouldn't feel right, it's too snappy and old-fashioned.

If you put "Seriously, don't play this game again, this is the only ending," then you'd have people even more likely to replay it. If the death scene itself were longer or more cinematic or had credits or something (all of which wouldn't fit this particular project due to its small size) then you might let people know it's over a bit easier.

[Alex May]

If you put "Seriously, don't play this game again, this the only ending," then you'd have people even more likely to replay it.

Not everybody though, most people would take that message at face value and not play again. Some psychopaths might believe it to be a lie and play over and over again I suppose, but you should only judge your work by the actions of extremists if the game is targeted at such people.

[AdamAtomic]

My suggestion was that a few too many people may be caught up in singing its artistic praise in response to the existing artistic praise, and too few were questioning it and saying "um... I don't think it was quite that good, or that deep".

This is complete bullshit.

[Corpus]

Seriously, though, do the fish have some importance I'm missing? Rinku said they might tell you the way to go, but I don't see it