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[Unplayables]

As for the OP...

I've been teaching kids to program videogames for a few years now. These kids go to after-school child care and they can sometimes sign up for extra workshops.

I like working with kids, because their honesty is just so refreshing.

This week: "Eww why do you have beard suddenly? That looks really ugly!"

I notice that the people who look after these kids sometimes think they need to handhold the girls, so I have to talk with them sometimes afterwards. Kids to some degree, will behave according to your expectations. If you handhold them too much, they won't think for themselves.

I also notice that despite my efforts to treat each of them the same, different kids have different needs.
It's not unusual that the girl groups rapidly blow through the drawing/animation part of the workshop, producing 50% to 100% more sprites.

When it comes to the programming, kids get to decide if they want to experiment and try out stuff or follow a bit of teaching from me and then work it out. Here the girls universally (with one exception ever) want to follow the group lesson. The boys is about 50/50. It's usually the older ones (11/12) and the ones with more gaming experience who want to dive right in.

These workshops, typically are very popular and I think it's because I give the kids some free reign in how to develop and am quick to assist when they get frustrated with a problem. However, I note that in every group of 12 kids, there is an average of 2 boys who go completely crazy on it. They work on it at home. They send me their developed work months later. They try to sell it online.

And only once this happened with a girl (the one exception I mentioned before).

This leads me to believe that in general, boys are more prone to becoming gamers, due to some boys having a deep intrinsic enjoyment of games. But that doesn't mean that there are non-gamers. Every kid has at least played a flash game. Most kids have played minecraft. They're crazy about minecraft. If I am MTV generation, they are the minecraft generation.

--

Finally when it comes to minorities... I believe this is very much an economic situation. The kids I mention above are always from priviliged, rich areas. I also teach poor kids, but they never have access to good computers, so I can't teach them game dev and instead make movies with them. There are minorities in these rich area. They do fine. But there are more minorities outside them. There are some nerdy ones among them, but they simply rarely have access to decent pc's to really develop their game dev/computer skills. They usually have some kind of console and 3-4 games. I suspect the difference is bigger in other countries, because even poor people from my country are relatively affluent.

[Blambo]

that's really lovely, unplayables, though i don't think a lot of the gender-specific stuff are things that can't be challenged or changed.

but anyway the reaction against lee was because he's obviously a thoughtful person but was punching down, that's it. the reason why i didn't like that you were defending him and didn't take you seriously was because what you said contained the assumption that people are dismissing men simply for being men, and implied that it's not happening to women. maybe the scope of what you're saying is limited to tigsource or whatever, but i think it's a little more nuanced than that.

[Unplayables]

but anyway the reaction against lee was because he's obviously a thoughtful person but was punching down, that's it. the reason why i didn't like that you were defending him and didn't take you seriously was because what you said contained the assumption that people are dismissing men simply for being men, and implied that it's not happening to women. maybe the scope of what you're saying is limited to tigsource or whatever, but i think it's a little more nuanced than that.

Thank you for the clarification. I still don't understand why people have to attack his supposed relationship status. With the multiple people dismissing his long thought out post with simply: "You can't get a girl" makes it seem to me that he's the one being punched down. I think we need to re-examine the assumption that women are dismissed for being women. Because I'm skeptical that happens as much as the current online narrative is showing.

But we don't need to agree on that, that's ok. I'm just a little disheartened that any examination of the possibility that men can face sexism or to examine the assumption that women are facing a large amount of systemic sexism is retorted with personal attacks so frequently.

Regardless, I appreciate you wording your thoughts with a little more depth. Is it time for beer now?

[gimymblert]

Let's put it straight: sexism is on the exercise of power, sexism exist against men when women are in a position of power, it's clearly not the case in game, let alone hardcore game. I mean each time a women appear, especially in a position of authority (Jade Raymond) there is a huge nasty push back. And even in position of equals there is problem. It that's bad you can have a panel of women in the industry and have them report the exact same experience multiple time across many place. THAT is the problem.

[Boreal]

Let's put it straight: sexism is on the exercise of power, sexism exist against men when women are in a position of power, it's clearly not the case in game, let alone hardcore game. I mean each time a women appear, especially in a position of authority (Jade Raymond) there is a huge nasty push back. And even in position of equals there is problem. It that's bad you can have a panel of women in the industry and have them report the exact same experience multiple time across many place. THAT is the problem.

When has sexism ever been about power?  Sexism and oppression are two different things - you can't say that because men are generally not oppressed that you can't be sexist against men.

[gimymblert]

Think that through, please

[Boreal]

Think that through, please

OK

[rj]

With the multiple people dismissing his long thought out post with simply: "You can't get a girl"

i was literally the only person who did anything even close. i'm the only one remotely that immature, it wasn't "multiple people"

I think we need to re-examine the assumption that women are dismissed for being women. Because I'm skeptical that happens as much as the current online narrative is showing.

trust me, there's nothing to be skeptical about. women are looked at as lesser beings because of their gender, and they're boxed in and expected to behave in a certain way. if you don't believe the absolute droves of women who are constantly saying that because of their experience with it, believe me; i'm the straightest whitest cissest dude who's ever googled "hot boob tit ladies"

the possibility that men can face sexism

they literally cannot, it is impossible. sexism is institutionalized. maybe men can experience prejudice, though most of that prejudice (when coming from women) comes from growing up in a sexist society in the first place

[Blambo]

but anyway the reaction against lee was because he's obviously a thoughtful person but was punching down, that's it. the reason why i didn't like that you were defending him and didn't take you seriously was because what you said contained the assumption that people are dismissing men simply for being men, and implied that it's not happening to women. maybe the scope of what you're saying is limited to tigsource or whatever, but i think it's a little more nuanced than that.

Thank you for the clarification. I still don't understand why people have to attack his supposed relationship status. With the multiple people dismissing his long thought out post with simply: "You can't get a girl" makes it seem to me that he's the one being punched down. I think we need to re-examine the assumption that women are dismissed for being women. Because I'm skeptical that happens as much as the current online narrative is showing.

But we don't need to agree on that, that's ok. I'm just a little disheartened that any examination of the possibility that men can face sexism or to examine the assumption that women are facing a large amount of systemic sexism is retorted with personal attacks so frequently.

Regardless, I appreciate you wording your thoughts with a little more depth. Is it time for beer now?

just within the scope of games, you can see that women have been targeted for abuse way more than men have been, at least on the journalism side of things. this gamergate thing is a pretty good example of that. of all potential sources of corruption, why choose the one that's the most tenuous and ungrounded? it's because zoe quinn was a target to begin with, way before any of this, and it was because she's a woman. there are actually a lot of game journalists who are men and describe themselves as "social justice warriors", but they haven't been the victim of the deluge of online harassment, it's been the women.

i get that what i'm saying sounds circumstantial but for something as manufactured as gamergate, it's pretty crystal clear what's going on.

also to you and boreal, obviously men can experience and be negatively affected by sexism but it's not as culturally supported as sexism against women. you can thank hundreds of years of misogyny for that.

actually a lot of sexism exercised against men (being expected to be masculine, having a moral obligation to be strong or w/e) comes from the perspective that men are somehow inherently better than women, and reflects an imbalanced power structure and cultural sexism.

even though the men in question are the targets of immediate sexism, it's the product of an overarching cultural phenomenon that feminism is trying to combat.

feminism isn't "we hate men". it's gender equality that comes from the perspective of women because that's who the inequality is affecting.

[Boreal]

feminism isn't "we hate men". it's gender equality that comes from the perspective of women because that's who the inequality is affecting.

Well yeah, it's only the extreme feminists that actually spout misandry.  The one thing that I find many "moderate" feminists get wrong is the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome.

I'm sure it is more difficult for women to enter an industry populated by mostly introverted men, but that's not due to an inequality of opportunity.

I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to make but whatever.

[Unplayables]

i was literally the only person who did anything even close. i'm the only one remotely that immature, it wasn't "multiple people"

Are you saying you aren't multiple people?  

My bad. But there were multiple personal attacks that were aimed at him, not at his message.

trust me, there's nothing to be skeptical about. women are looked at as lesser beings because of their gender, and they're boxed in and expected to behave in a certain way. if you don't believe the absolute droves of women who are constantly saying that because of their experience with it, believe me; i'm the straightest whitest cissest dude who's ever googled "hot boob tit ladies"

Sorry I don't put much stock into arguments from authority. There are also droves of men who say that all women are cheating sluts. I examine that skeptically too. Both of these people are flinging shit at the other gender. A lot of women are fine with the #killallmen hashtag, but I doubt it's a majority. Same for men.

There are always people who want to make you believe something for their own benefit. Me too, btw. I want you to believe that it's valuable to engage in ideas and opinions rather than personal attacks. Although I admit these comics wouldn't be nearly as funny.  

the possibility that men can face sexism

they literally cannot, it is impossible. sexism is institutionalized. maybe men can experience prejudice, though most of that prejudice (when coming from women) comes from growing up in a sexist society in the first place

Well that's where we disagree on then. That's ok.
Sorry, but today I've had someone online engage me in a discussion about gender. In the midst of the discussion the person asked: "Wait are you a boy or a girl?". When I responded I'm male, I got the response "Oh then I've nothing else to say to you". If that isn't sexism I don't know what is.

Now that's not something that is a very serious problem, but it is something I see a lot and in increasing amount. Men being dismissed not for their opinion, but for being men.

Another thing that's floating around a lot is that men need to listen to women and believe them. Sorry, but I hold women in higher regard. I believe they have the intellectual and emotional capacity to stand against scrutiny of their beliefs in opinions as much as men do.

Regardless, I'm happy that even if we disagree (because I'm share my meagre arguments haven't swayed you), we are at least discussing issues instead of personal attacks. Is it too much to hope for an apology?  

Nvm, I won't push my luck.

[rj]

Sorry I don't put much stock into arguments from authority. There are also droves of men who say that all women are cheating sluts. I examine that skeptically too. Both of these people are flinging shit at the other gender.

you're simultaneously admitting that droves of men berate/harass women and saying that you don't believe the women who claim they're being regularly harassed; do you see the problem with that?

it's not something to examine "skeptically" and it's not "shit-flinging" when a lady describes her experiences with sexual assault in a public environment whatsoever

[Unplayables]

snip

feminism isn't "we hate men". it's gender equality that comes from the perspective of women because that's who the inequality is affecting.

I agree. However I believe there are a lot of people who call themselves feminists who have the perspective that western society is heavily skewed to disadvantage women and as a result, the people who believe this behave very unfairly towards men.

--

In regards to #gamergate. There are a lot of feminists in #gamergate.
There are a lot of things coming to light that show that what we've been told about the zoey quinn situation isn't what we first believed it. Today multiple people were harassed simply for supporting #gamergate on twitter. Someone was threatened at home. People are receiving strange calls and packages. Escapistmagazine got a ddos attack. Someone's boss was repeatedly called until she fired her employee. Simply for supporting #gamergate.

I guess it makes sense if you see #gamergate as a violent, agressive, harassing movement, but that's not what the movement is about at all; that's only how it's being painted.

But I suspect once the things that have been uncovered reach a broader media, that you will possibly rethink your current views.

[Boreal]

I guess it makes sense if you see #gamergate as a violent, agressive, harassing movement, but that's not what the movement is about at all; that's only how it's being painted.

The issue with this is that the droves of edgy teens and socially inept manchildren on 4chan (which are a vocal minority by the way) thought it was epic to send death threats when the majority of 4chan wanted to keep it rational.  A few bad apples spoil the bunch.

[Unplayables]

you're simultaneously admitting that droves of men berate/harass women and saying that you don't believe the women who claim they're being regularly harassed; do you see the problem with that?

it's not something to examine "skeptically" and it's not "shit-flinging" when a lady describes her experiences with sexual assault in a public environment whatsoever

I'm not admitting that there men that say shitty things; that would imply I have something to confess, when I bear no responsibility to the shitty behaviour of other people.

You're putting words in my mouth that I don't believe women who claim they're being regularly harassed. Please reread what I wrote.

I do believe we respond to a woman being harassed with much more support than a man being harassed though. I believe this is not even society, but a biological pre-disposition to protect and nurture women.

I saw the kickstarter recently of a guy who had been in prison for 6 years on a false rape claim (this was eventually proven in court). Yeah, call me crazy, but I think it's valuable to treat all serious claims with serious skepticism.

Take the Elliot rodger shooting. After this disturbed guy killed 6 people, there's a huge outcry about how women are victimised. There's a response on twitter of #notallmen (not all men are bad to women), which is quickly shouted down by the hashtag #yesallwomen (face sexism).

But the crazy part? This guy killed 4 guys and 2 girls. Yet still the collective world is turning this into an issue of women being disadvantaged.

I think women and men can both face sexism and I think since they're both capable adults, they can both stand up to the understandable scrutiny if they make serious claims. Because to believe them without any doubt, is giving them power. And power always corrupts.

[Unplayables]

The issue with this is that the droves of edgy teens and socially inept manchildren on 4chan (which are a vocal minority by the way) thought it was epic to send death threats when the majority of 4chan wanted to keep it rational.  A few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Or false flags. It's hard to tell. There's a bit of an information war going on. With the current 4chan banning all #gamergate discussion when it's allowed the craziest kinds of discussion before, it's safe to say that those in power at 4chan have an interest in spinning this situation a certain way.

But it seems the few bad apples problem occurs on both sides, because multiple supporters of #gamergate have been harassed the last few days. This does not discredit either side, it just shows that there are assholes in the world.

[Schoq]

There are a lot of feminists in #gamergate.

haha

[Unplayables]

Okay that's quite a bit about a hot socio-political situation. I don't intend to post more, but I will read the replies.

If you're curious and you have specific non-attacking questions, I will answer them. Seeing the civil discussion we've had after the wonky start my hope is good.  

[Unplayables]

There are a lot of feminists in #gamergate.

haha

This is more of a response than such a dismissive response deserves but I decided to let twitter answer it in a minute:
 

[gimymblert]

Well some people don't realize the purpose of the #killallmen is sarcasm, especially after a misogynist raid against their own person and they seek support from their humor circle, it's made to actually piss of the misogynist that came to their profile. It's funny because those the most likely to use the #killallmen are also having HUGE circle of celebration of men and crude fantasy of their dick, and their face, their mannerism, their good will and all the good right stuff they does to her too.


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I told you they have a strategy, to pass as nice and feminist and hammer key political point to undermine the discourse from inside.