next »

[SirNiko]

I'm putting this in design because I think it may spur some tangential discussion related to such, and also because Design is the best subforum on this website.

So, lately I've been entertaining a 5 year old of no relation to me. She thinks video games are cool, but she absolutely sucks at them. I love platformers, but all the ones I have are quite simply too hard for her to complete. She lacks coordination, and she gets frustrated when she gets killed and has to restart.

Knytt's a good game. The player is never under threat of time or monsters, and when those are a threat you get lots of warning and save points. I'm thinking maybe I'll have her play that next time.

Wario Land 2 has a no-death bit, but I think there are too many places where you have to perform a series of jumps or tackles in order to beat a level. I considered it, but I think it may be too difficult for her, especially if she gets into the game early on and gets frustrated by the difficulty later.

I feel like the best place to start with platformers is to pick games where the player can jump and run without the threat of death. Ideally, you're never sent back more than a few inches from where you died if you do die. You should only have to make a jump once, and then you won't have to do it again.

Any time you have to complete a challenging task, the task should never be undone: if you must hit a monster three times to beat it, once you hit the monster one time it doesn't regain life if you die or take too long. Let the player keep every victory, no matter how small it may be.

What games am I missing? Are there obvious things I may be overlooking?

-SirNiko

[ortoslon]

Knytt Stories has many third-party Playground levels (no enemies, no threats). they don't give a sense of victory but are nice to run around. i can't recommend any in particular because i usually don't play them

EDIT: also Runman: Race Around the World

[MechanicalPen]

EDIT: also Runman: Race Around the World

That game is like, the opposite of easy.

I recommend any of the Kirby games for people who are bad at platformers. It's generous with healing items and Kirby can float, so there are no tricky jumping bits.

[Melly]

Kirby and Knytt are probably good choices, and you can help her though the more deadly parts.

I honestly can't think of more. Maybe making games for very small kids isn't something that crosses most developers' minds.

[baconman]

The first world or two of just about any good platformer is fine for players of that skill. The DKC trilogy is nice and forgiving like that too, without being too easy. But that frustration, along with practice, is really what gives people something to grow on. You might also consider Braid or some "turning back time" or "bullet time" games like that, too.

[Xion]

Kirby games have co-op which could be cool since you could jump in and help her when the going gets tough.

[Aik]

Yeah - Kirby. My first game ever was Kirby's Dreamland, and it's both very well designed and very easy. The sequel is much less so, but maybe that's just my irritation with having to go back and redo most of the levels if you want to finish it.
On the other hand, it's still got standard old-school Nintendo style death where you go back to the start of the game if you run out of lives and such, IIRC.

[Fifth]

I'd say Yoshi's Island is pretty lenient as far as platformers go, but I don' know how well it would work in this case.

[Miko Galvez]

I'd say Yoshi's Island is pretty lenient as far as platformers go, but I don' know how well it would work in this case.

Yoshi's Island will make your panic everytime you touch an enemy.

[SirNiko]

Kirby Superstar seems like a fine choice, I hadn't considered the co-op.

Yoshi's Island is probably horrible for the baby crying and going nuts.

It isn't so much 'games for children' as consideration for players who are terrible at these kinds of games. A version of IWBTG where you keep moving forward even when you die would be insanely popular, if for no other reason than every screen provides entertainment.

I think providing a "No death" mode would vastly increase the attraction of a lot existing games, and provide more entry points for players to try harder titles.

-SirNiko

[DYRE]

I think providing a "No death" mode would vastly increase the attraction of a lot existing games, and provide more entry points for players to try harder titles.

-SirNiko

Alternatively, just giving more games arcade-style continue systems would be a really good thing, I think.
Hardcore players can always try to beat the game without using continues, and casual players don't have to worry about missing out on content because the game's too hard.  Shmup fans seem to be fine with this setup, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in other types of games.

[gunmaggot]

Kirby's Dreamland 3.





One of my favourite games of all time and the absolute perfect game to introduce a five-year-old girl to platformers.  No deathless mode, but it's pretty easy (though not retardedly so) - it's co-op so you can help clear out most threats.

Genesis Sonics are good bets too - Sonic 3 especially, as it has co-op.

[gimymblert]

Trade difficulty ramp for complexity/stimulation ramp. No death, no bottomless pit and can still be fun (you can still hurt with bump). I plan to make some game like that, so far even hardcore don't see the difference 

[bento_smile]

Any reason it has to be a platformer? I mean, other than it being the title of the thread.

When I was a kid, the only game I could play was Frog Bog (on Intellivision)

[hmm]

I heard that in Mario Galaxy (I havent played it), that a second player can join in to help the main player? I'm not suggesting that the mind warping platforming mechanics of Mario Galaxy are a good place to start, just highlighting that this co-op idea isnt used in many platformers but could be a great way to ease new/young players into the full on game mechanics. It also means that the game itself doesn't need to be 'dummed down' so that skilled and unskilled alike can enjoy it.

Examples? I suppose you could have straight up co-op, where the skilled player might take it upon themselves to clear a level of enemies. Or, you could have a 'guardian angel' player who can fly all over and has the ability to catch the other player when they fall and drop them down somewhere safe (or dangerous, if they're feeling mean), allowing the skilled player to intervene when they see fit without having to take the controller out of the novice's hands or rely on some sort of in game AI.

[SirNiko]

It's platformers because I like platformers. If I'm gonna get a kid into games, I'm going to do it with games I like.

We did the Mario Galaxy thing, and so far that's the only game the kid seems to enjoy. She's not very good at aiming the remote (but she's getting better!). The whole part where Star Bits are both ammo and currency hurts, though. Now that she knows that we need bits to open up new levels, she never wants to shoot them.

The other issue is that the second player in the game is really not very useful. When player one is running around, it's hard to aim, and the result is the second player feels pretty useless.

I'm looking at games she can play, and be in charge for a change. I think next time I'm going to try kirby super star. She tried Knytt, and that made her cry when she had to do the wall jump during the tutorial. That's not Knytt's fault, though, since it was a pretty simple task and there's no threat of death. I just need to get it in her mind that:

It's just a game, it's okay if you get hurt or 'die' because you can try again.

She can succeed, it's not impossible for her.

Somebody needs to make a game that teaches kids how to play video games. That'd make my life easier.

-SirNiko

[bento_smile]

It's platformers because I like platformers. If I'm gonna get a kid into games, I'm going to do it with games I like.

Fair enough. I just figure that a different game would be easier (like, competitive ones which don't stop you playing when you fail. ie. bowling in Wii Sports and the like. Even a 1 year old can play Tekken!)

For reference... Sonic was the first platformer I played. The benefits being that it has very simple rules (compared to Kirby and Klonoa, which both have a loooot of rules) and health is plentiful. The downside is it's pretty twitchy.

[Fifth]

The other issue is that the second player in the game is really not very useful. When player one is running around, it's hard to aim, and the result is the second player feels pretty useless.

It's not so much being a second cursor to collect/shoot star bits that makes the second player useful as it is the ability to totally freeze most enemies in their tracks.  And during tricky jumping bits, you can keep your cursor over Mario to offer that extra spin in the air in case your Mario forgets about it.

I've been playing second player to an 8-year-old, and those things can make quite a difference.

The A button ball can also knock around those bouncy green ball things (which can occasionally be useful) and search grass for star bits (which I guess is mostly useless).

[SirNiko]

So, today I confronted Little Girl with Kirby's Adventure (On the NES). I've got one of those FC Twin things that uses SNES controllers, and it took a while but now she's accepted that the X and A buttons do nothing.

This seems to be working pretty well. The early levels are pretty simple, because you can fly over everything, so she can drop down when she wants to kill a monster or get an item on her own terms. The early levels are really simple and straightforward at first, then they throw in some parts where you have to go down, so you can't fly over everything. I'd never noticed that before, but it's a really clever and subtle way to gradually force the player to take on more challenges on the ground.

It took her a while to understand how the Y button can shoot air, suck up bad guys AND shoot bad guys, one button can do all that? But she's getting better. It took her fifteen minutes to figure out how to jump onto the little platform in the 'museum' to suck up the sword enemy, but she eventually got it.

Right now, she's in a cycle of "It's too hard, I'll never beat it", then she plays it and beats it, then insists the next part's REALLY the part that's too hard.

I can't be the only person who's trying to teach a kid to play games, can I?

-SirNiko

[gunmaggot]

Why are you dicking around with Kirby's Adventure?  Kirby's Dreamland 3!