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gimymblert
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« on: July 12, 2011, 09:25:21 PM »

Most generally people discuss dialogue in term of what would be cool like NLP (type watever you want and the system get it) or emotional feedback but rarely in term what to achieve with such system in gameplay term. Fighting in game is very unlike the real thing for example why would we want discussion to be alike? The problem that arise is that most game focus too much on discussion and became wordy because most of it is really just fluff and flavor.

Before solving the interface how about a detail counting of actual gameplay functionnality and their implementation within game?



I had already had identified some pattern:

Information vending machine:
They basically serve to give direction or exposition to the player (what to do, what is the goal). It's the most used and most simple possible in game.

Event trigger:
Generally double as IVM but is actually the way to progress in the game.

Token:
They work like token to collect (Gotta talk to them all) You need to trigger them all to move in the game.

BreadCrumb:
Dialogue that hint to the player he is progressing but does not participate to the progression.

Shit testing:
Name after the famous probing technique use by female woman, basically a question to test/probe the player on something. Choice are shit test.

Gating:
Not to be confuse with ET, this one is mandatory and block progression until done.



That's just for NPC dialogue functionality now we can look at dialogue in term of player perspective.

Skill:
The performance of the player, what it does and how well, for exemple :Might be an inappropriate piece said by the avatar or the answer of the NPC in case of failure.

Mean:
Dialogue as the methodology of acting in the world.

Flow:
Dialogue as mean to regulate resource access. Might be order from the player.

Resource:
The dialogue are being gathered or/and use as consumable.



How about the game structure perspective on dialogue?

Quest:
Give the player a goal to pursue.

Host:
The dialogue hold the goal point of the player, generally involve Shit test and gating through dialogue tree.

Condition :
Dialogue that are needed for part of the game.

Attitude:
Value hold by a piece of dialogue.

Stake:
The dialogue hold the outcomes of a situation before a choice need to be made. Affect the value of dialogue piece.

Need:
The dialogue show the context that might cause a stake.

Motivation:
The dialogue show that the willingness to cope with the stake.

Evaluation:
The dialogue show how the reasoning about the stake.

Selection:
The dialogue show a choice being made.

Can you think of more functionality or how current game use mechanics to deal with each of them?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 10:46:48 PM »

could you give examples of these? i can't really follow what you mean by any of these categories. bring the theory down to earth with examples!
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moi
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2011, 07:16:08 AM »

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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2011, 09:17:15 AM »

I don't think Game Dialogue is anything like the "real life talk". As combat, its simplified and usually stylized. It has "flavor" but most Combat has it too: Flashing Lights, Dying Animations, Blood, and so on...

The reason why many Game's Texts are wordy, it's simply because they are badly written.
Max Payne is a great example of what happens when a professional writer is hired.

Now, by "badly written" I don't mean the storyline being bad or anything like this, I mean the Writing of it. The words used, the personality in each speech, the balance between wordy and soulless. Things that are part of the Craft/Art/Science of Writing, and as anything else, requires practice to master.

When you look at Movies, the script is written, maybe rewritten by another professional, then they get to be screen-written and usually, new ideas are implemented when they don't work while shooting.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2011, 07:05:13 PM »

I need to respond this thread, time is lacking because I can't make impulse answer
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 12:30:23 PM »

I've been thinking for a long time about ways to flesh out the way dialogue can be treated in games. First, the complexity of dialogue mechanics in your game should be proportional to the amount of dialogue in your game.  If dialogue is as important in your game as combat, its mechanics should be just as detailed. While dialogue doesn't play a big enough role in my current project to warrant the inclusion of most of the features I list here, some side- projects in the design docs folder could make great use of them.

1. The most important thing in dialogue is that it actually be dialogue. Games are unique because they are interactive--take advantage of this dimension whenever possible. If you never give your player (at least the illusion of) a voice, he might as well be reading a book during the wordy bits of your game.

In the past, dialogue interactivity has taken the form of menu-driven dialogue trees in most wRPGs, text parsers in interactive fiction, and keyword wikis in a few older RPGs. Though my favorite (and the most popular) of these is the menu-driven approach, each of these systems has its own failings (which I won't go into detail about here, but they're fairly obvious if you think about them).

2. An idea for expanding dialogue mechanics in one of my future projects involves a fusion of the menu and wiki approaches and is based off an indie adventure game called Rorschach. The player's character would have a skill called, say, "small-talk" or "memory" that would govern the number of topics he could store in his memor at a time. When talking with an NPC, he could start a conversation about one of these topics, which would open a menu-based dialogue tree with the NPC (in which other dialogue-based skills might be employed). In such conversations, he could swap topics he encounters while talking with NPCs for topics already in his memory. "Topics" could also be acquired by reading books and newspapers.  Perhaps these topics could also be added to a long-term topic bank which would allow the player to swap active and inactive topics around at, say, the beginning of every day.

3. I mentioned other possible dialogue skills earlier, one of which I will describe here. In social interaction, some people are better able to act against their nature than others. This could be modeled in the player character by a "self-control" stat (though that isn't quite the right phrase). This stat would determine the number of options available to a character in each dialogue menu, with the responses most in line with your character's personality appearing first. Thus, a naturally bloodthirsty character with high self-control might be able to reign himself in and have access to responses which would be more natural for more peaceful individuals. Over time, doing so might even have an effect on his personality. Additionally, a character with low self control may opt to spend a "turn" of dialogue trying to think of something to say (increasing the number of options available). However, the NPC might decide to fill your silence by continuing on, and in any case will likely perceive your character as socially awkward.

4. Too often, NPCs are treated merely as information dispensers. This becomes painfully obvious in instances such as the "investigate" dialogue branches in some of Bioware's more modern games. Most NPCs should tire of conversation with your character by the tenth time you've asked them the same question. A lot of work needs to be done to make NPCs more lifelike in this regard. This is much easier said than done, however, which brings me to a way to possibly go about remedying this...

5. Procedural dialogue. I've had vague ideas concerning this, but it seems to be the only way to tackle a large-scale game in which dialogue is crucial. This fellow captures the gist of it over here: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.development/browse_thread/thread/823d1607ec9d98d6.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 12:43:49 PM by Ranordine » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 01:26:00 AM »

Imo the most important thing for interactive dialog in RPGs is that it doesn't feel artificial. Ideally the player should care about what's being said rather
than the mechanics behind it ("shut up and give me my quest" syndrome." Good writing is key here (see Planescape Torment, Vampire Bloodlines etc) This ties in with your 4th point but it's also my issue with the idea of "procedural" dialog. Once the player starts understanding the patterns behind it, any semblance of immersion disappears.
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 04:41:18 AM »

I don't know that Planescape Torment had good writing, but it sure had a lot.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 05:22:32 AM »

it had several writers; i felt the writing was mixed. the writers each wrote a different 'area' of the game, and some areas had better writing than others

i thought the best-written area was the town with all the different competing cults / philosophical movements (the sensates, etc.), and the worst written area was that town that was destroyed that you can't return to (the place you had to fight that angel)
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Sankar
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 08:21:38 AM »

I loved Planescape Torment writing, Honestly it was so good that I only played the game because of it. I didn't liked the graphics, the designs. I hated the combat, and I didn't felt as free as I wish in a cRPG.
But the writing was so good that made me want to read more and more of it, and honestly I'm not a big book reader. Planescape Torment is my biggest regret in Gaming, I really wish I played it to the end.
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Ranordine
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 09:45:32 AM »

Quote
Planescape Torment is my biggest regret in Gaming...

I see what you did there.

Seriously, though, play it to the end. It's a game that's worth your time.

Anyway, my post was primarily concerned with ways of expanding gameplay associated with dialogue (Is that the topic of the thread? I'm not sure if I understood the OP correctly.). Good writing, of course, should always be striven for.  Inflicting bad writing on your player (if there's a lot of it) is as bad as a dull combat system or a bland, inappropriate art style.  Writing procedural dialogue with a standard of quality would certainly be a challenge--one that is partially addressed in the thread I linked to. It is unnecessary for most games, of course, but for realistic games with many NPCs, it may be the best approach.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 01:55:38 PM »

the discussion was never about good dialogue but about the gameplay function they fulfill so we can build a system/interface on it AND make it relevant to the other gameplay. It's only when we can plan their purpose we can try to hide it with flavor. Especially true for procedural dialogue.


Function of dialogue from NPC in game term:


Information dispenser:
They basically serve to give direction or exposition to the player (what to do, what is the goal). It's the most used and most simple possible in game.

"Rats stay in basement and are weak to poison"


Event trigger:
Generally double as information dispenser but is actually the way to progress in the game.

"Rats are invading the basement to kill [unlock the story to rat invasion]"


Token:
They work like token to collect (Gotta talk to them all) You need to trigger them all to move in the game.

"inform the 3 hunters we go to basement killing rats and I will open the door"
Hunter 1: "rats are back? let me help"
Hunter 2: "I'm the best rat killer let's go"
Hunter 3: "Puny rats will be instructed to leave"


BreadCrumb:
Dialogue that hint to the player he is progressing but does not participate to the progression.

"Woohoo one more hunter to find and we will hack those rats"


Shit testing:
Name after the famous probing technique use by female woman, basically a question to test/probe the player on something. Choice are shit test.

"Will you take the lead or leave it to hunter?
Option 1: {take the lead}[NPC esteem goes up]"


Gating:
Not to be confuse with Event Triggering, this one is mandatory and block progression until done.

"I see you have inform all hunter, you are ready to go in that basement kicking those rats"





Function of dialogue from the player in games:

Skill:
The performance of the player, what it does and how well, for exemple: Might be an inappropriate piece said by the avatar or the answer of the NPC in case of failure.

"player: If you come with me I will let you lay the cheese"
escort: "You were not very convincing at arguing with the rat hunter"


Mean:
Dialogue as the methodology of acting in the world.

"[paragon]: I will let you go first in the basement to get the lead"
"[renegade]: I will let you go first in the basement to get the lead {bluffing}"
"[order]: Cover me"


Flow:
Dialogue as mean to regulate resource access. Might be order from the player.

"less poison in basement A"


Resource:
The dialogue are being gathered or/and use as consumable.

"here is all the bad thing I heard about you"




How about the game structure perspective on dialogue?


Quest:
Give the player a goal to pursue.

"inform the 3 hunters we go to basement killing rats and I will open the door"


Host:
The dialogue hold the goal point of the player, generally involve Shit test and gating through dialogue tree.

[seduction, persuasion gameplay]


Condition :
Dialogue that are needed for part of the game.

"say to my wife I'm here to access my garage"


Attitude:
Value hold by a piece of dialogue.

"[bravery] I can hold the most difficult part alone"


Stake:
The dialogue hold the outcomes of a situation before a choice need to be made. Affect the value of dialogue piece.

"If we don't take out the rats quickly they will invade the storage and eat the seed and we will have trouble for winter"

Need:
The dialogue show the context that might cause a stake.

"We need the seed to pass this winter without trouble"

Motivation:
The dialogue show that the willingness to cope with the stake.

"oh but I'm fed up with seed, I guess I can have a diet this winter"


Evaluation:
The dialogue show how the reasoning about the stake.

"If the rats get to the sewer they could go up in every house, it will be harder to cope with the invasion"


Selection:
The dialogue show a choice being made.

"we may lay poison in sewer but that would only reduce the damage, better keeping our resource here to fight them back"

Non gameplay dialogue

Characterization
backstory
forewarning
Story telling
relationship
Disposition
Mood
Tone[/i]




Of course function can combine themselves


Can you think of more functionality or how current game use mechanics to deal with each of them?


The idea is that a system must recognize those function and deal with them to create dialogue. Once the dialogue have a purpose we can add flavor to them.

On a NLP it's hard to know which purpose serve one bit of dialogue in term of system. Most of the time it's because the system don't recognize the overall function of the sentence (no system to deal with it) so it cannot cope with out of bound sentence.
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