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[oahassan]

I'm currently working on a fighting game in which players are supposed to make there own movesets.  Now that I've tried to make some of my own I know animating is not so easy.  However, it's rewarding to play with the movesets I've created.  Have you tried to make a game with a large user generated content component or thought about doing so?  How do you balance the demands on players for generating content and keeping the game fun?

If there are any threads already on this topic let me know.  I searched, but couldn't find one.

[gimymblert]

Classification
If the move can be categorize in broad category you can put some light constrain to keep the game fun.

For example, projectile move have some advantage but also some drawback, throw can only work under some condition, damage scaling is constrain, etc....

Along with some anti locking mechanics like negative feedback or loop detection etc...

[shig]

You would need some sort of mathemathical/statistical genius to make an algorythm that automatically balances complex movesets in a fighting game. You would also need to implement that thing they did on Skullgirls that detects infinite combos.

user rating would be possible, but also very easy to cheat.

sorry, im not really replying to the topic at hand but i thought this was interesting.

[oahassan]

I was reading through the designing a fighter game thread and read a linked article on guilty gear that produces balancing without a genius algorithm. The key insight is providing failsafes that allow any player to put a strong defense.  I try to handle this like they do in smash brothers by allowing a player to influence the direction they move in when they get hit.  With techniques like this you can mitigate most infinite combos and increase the pace of the game by requiring chasing for a strong offense. Establishing a failsafe framework is an alternative to having to strictly classify moves to enforce balance, like Gimmy suggested.  One that I think will require less tuning in the end.

The relevant property of a failsafe framework is that it allows players to be more creative in what they make.  This isn't even a concern in non-competitive games, but I like some friendly intensity in most of the multiplayer games I play.

I'll take a look at the Skullgirls blog to see there combo blocking.  Thanks for the reference.

[shig]

SSB comp play has some pretty rigid tiers, dude. The failsafe you mentioned actually ends up benefitting each character differently, depending on their falling speed, air movement speed and hitbox size.

Also the infinite combo detecting feature in Skullgirls is basically a genius algorythm lol.

I might be complicating things too much, tho. I doubt you're making the kind of game that would need you to worry much about competitive play and tiers and stuff.

[gimymblert]

Also the infinite combo detecting feature in Skullgirls is basically a genius algorythm lol.

It's a buffer that look for repeating pattern, not exactly the most complicate feature ...

By the way movement of fighter can be abstract as a graph with hit box corner as nodes ...

edit:
There is so many way to counter infinite combo (assuming this is the main problem), or to implement come back and reversal, irrespective of movement ability and parameter, I cannot see what's the matter at all.

[oahassan]

SSB comp play has some pretty rigid tiers, dude. The failsafe you mentioned actually ends up benefitting each character differently, depending on their falling speed, air movement speed and hitbox size.

I gotta admit that's true.  Though I'm still surprised that same movesets are still being taken to new levels years after the game was made (ie Jigglypuff jumping tiers in 2009-10).

I might be complicating things too much, tho. I doubt you're making the kind of game that would need you to worry much about competitive play and tiers and stuff.

Keep it coming.  I won't run into these issues because I probably won't have a player base, but I'd still like to learn about them and how to work through them.

It's a buffer that look for repeating pattern, not exactly the most complicate feature ...

It may not be complicated to implement, but to me it's genius in the sense that it makes me wonder why I didn't think about it in the first place.

By the way movement of fighter can be abstract as a graph with hit box corner as nodes ...

I understand how this may be an efficient representation for collision detection or something along those lines, but how does this relate to the movement of a fighter? (What lies beyond the ellipsis?)

[Pedrosanchau]

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=19210.0

someone is trying to do the same thing (see post above).

I think the best (can be wrong) is to let the user create the sprite. For each move, users decide to put points in variables like power, speed of attack, recovery, hitstun... (less stats=easier work for the user). Limited statpoints for the characters or a move prevent overpowered character.

The only problem will be special moves. There is so many more variables than power and speed to take into account to balance special move. How can you balance teleport or mixup moves? forget this type of moves, attribute special stats points for these ability...

To prevent infinite, skullgirls system is a wrong way i think. it prevent the use of same move but don't prevent long combo of 40 seconds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boring as HELL! Sirlin article is enough to explain all you need to prevent infinite

[psy_wombats]

You could always go the route of adding proration/limit on attacks. Successive attacks eventually do less damage until the character 'limits' and can't be hit again until they fall down. And that way length of the combo can be kept down as well. Though I think infinites would be only one of a huge number of balance concerns, so...

And having made resources for a fighting game, are you expecting the average user to make their own moveset? Because that's a /lot/ of work. It would take away the whole user-generated content principle, but you could always supply a ton of moves per character and then have the user just mix and match.

[oahassan]

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=19210.0

someone is trying to do the same thing (see post above).

I think (and it was mentioned in the thread) that their approach is very akin to Mugen.  My implementation is more inspired by stick figure animations from sites like fluidanims.  You can guide players to make animations like this by deriving all the attack characteristics from the animation itself and rewarding the attacks that meet certain heuristics for what constitutes good animation.

you could always supply a ton of moves per character and then have the user just mix and match.

Having a good number of initial movesets will allow players to mix and match.  Allowing users to share the movesets they make, or individual attacks will keep them engaged too.  I think people always dream up new moves for the games they play.  Granted, animating them is a different story, but even if a small percentage of players were able to do so I think that could make for a vibrant community based around sharing and playing with the latest movesets.

[Pedrosanchau]

You can guide players to make animations like this by deriving all the attack characteristics from the animation itself and rewarding the attacks that meet certain heuristics for what constitutes good animation.

The user will have to use a 2d or 3d character for your program? a good animation doesn't follow the same path in both case. If it's 3d, you can implement limb detection and allow the user to do his animation just by moving the limbs and clicking.

[oahassan]

In my game I'm using a 2d model for animation.  I'll admit I'm not very experienced in this area, and am learning as I try to make my own animations.  I think this is probably one of the bigger challenges, though, for supporting user generated content.  A good tool is necessary for creation.  I know I'd like to use a good tool, and as I make animations I learn about what I need, but I don't know if that's a tool that everyone will find intuitive.  Anyone have thoughts on making tools for players to make content?

[Pedrosanchau]

I had the same problem while beginning animation. I searched rules or tutorial for animation but didn't find anything. All i do now is trying to make a move, see how it works and correct mistakes (for example, i often make too much sprites in some part of the move, it gives a strange feeling). So, your tool might become handy for a lot of people.

Another think you need to keep in mind is that animation need to be exagerated. If not, your character will look like those of Mortal kombat 1 2 3 with rigid movements. Think you do a disney movie not a realistic movie. Animation needs amplitude (as far as i know).

[psy_wombats]

I don't know if it would be helpful at all, but I have a tool sitting around that I wrote for fighting game sprites a while back... It doesn't actually aid in graphics creation, but it allows you do mark the collision, vulnerability, and attack boxes on all the frames. It's not much, but let me know if that's the sort of thing you're looking for.

[oahassan]

Another think you need to keep in mind is that animation need to be exagerated. If not, your character will look like those of Mortal kombat 1 2 3 with rigid movements. Think you do a disney movie not a realistic movie. Animation needs amplitude (as far as i know).

I've definitely gotten seen this in fighting animations I've liked.  Part of my attempt to get at this has been creating some impact effects.  Again, the style follows what I've seen in stick figure animations specifically, but it's tied to the characteristics of the attack and the animation.  Part of this is also coming up with a method for creating good knockback animations.  I've explored using inverse kinematics for this and have gotten results that are, well, let's say *unique*.  I believe the typical approach for this is to use a physics engine, but I kinda feel like that's too heavy weight.  Has anyone tried generated knockback animations without a physics engine, or have any thoughts on the matter?

I don't know if it would be helpful at all, but I have a tool sitting around that I wrote for fighting game sprites a while back... It doesn't actually aid in graphics creation, but it allows you do mark the collision, vulnerability, and attack boxes on all the frames. It's not much, but let me know if that's the sort of thing you're looking for.

Thanks for the offer.    I think that if you're going to ask players to make attack animations that it's best to leave that stuff out, though.  The reasons are that it removes some of the decision making involved in making attacks and it allows me to restrict the impact of animations to within the desired bounds of my game. Granted, I won't know if I've achieved that, but it seems like at least a different problem to have players tune values and hitboxes rather than having them learn from trial and error.  Maybe that's a less frustrating experience anyway.  Thoughts?

[Contrary]

Every single character in SSB64 can combo any other character to death from full health. Regardless of DI. Maybe with the exception of Samus/against Samus, though a number of Samus matchups still have death combos.

A number of factors counteract this but I think the main points are that games are generally played with many lives and you don't recover health after a win.

The game has some awful balance disparity between characters, for example Fox vs Luigi but the core mechanics of the game make every fight winnable.

Or you could make a Street Fighter-y game where I think you can probably have way more leeway making the moves exchangeable and all the stuff that has that great combo ability costs super meter.

[Sock Puppet]

On the balancing point I wonder if in a game like this trying to have a system that balances itself is against the point of creating your own moves in the first place?

What I mean is that for me the lure of creating your own moves would be to find that sweet sequence that enables you to win easily. When encountered by one the challenge would be to find a way to stop it. If you had defensive tool that allowed you a chance win no matter the moves you created then that might detract from the challenge?

I guess I'm thinking of Toribash were the game isn't balanced in the traditional sense but due to the simple nature of flailing limbs and the physics engine everything works itself out.