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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

so let's say that games can be grouped into two types, games that appeal to hunting instincts (male ones), and games that appeal to caretaking instincts (female ones) -- (and yes i know this is a terrible simplification blah blah but just grant it)

hunting often involves aiming, throwing/shooting, following things (often dangerous things), sometimes sneaking carefully so they can't detect you, working together, forming strategies, and similar stuff. fps games, platformers, shmups, strategy wargames, and so on are all games that appeal to the hunting instincts

games that appeal to caretaking instincts are rarer but still popular -- the sims, neopets, harvest moon, and so on -- games where you take care of something or cultivate something, nurturing it as it grows

if this is true, are games forever doomed to be either female games or male games? or can a game do both?

one game that i think does both is the rpg genre -- you both cultivate something (carefully building up a party and taking care of it, equipping it right, keeping it healed) and use it to hunt (kill monsters, go in dungeons in search of treasure or other goals). this may explain why rpgs seem to be the genre most popular with females but also not a genre that males overly avoid.

[John Nesky]

Not entirely thought out:

I have long dreamed of making a multiplayer cooperative game where the gameplay style is totally different for each of the playable characters. To give a lame example, borrowing the voice with an internet connection trope, one player might be a spy (male?) and the other player is the voice with the internet (female?).

I would suggest diversifying the possible roles beyond just gender, and to not actually discourage people from playing as the "wrong" gender by alienating them with exaggerated character stereotypes. Let them choose what type of gameplay they want, and if it happens to match the stereotype then so be it, but don't be patronizing.

[Inanimate]

This is actually a good point. It's not exactly split gender wise, but based on personality. However, a female IS more likely to have those caretaking instincts, and a male is also, conversely, more likely to have those hunting ones. Only natural. 

[Inane]

Only natural, only natural, only natural, STOP JUSTIFYING THINGS WITH 'IT'S ONLY NATURAL'

[Inanimate]

I was being sarcastic, sorry, REALLY hard to convey. (I forgot the smiley...) 

[it_is_coming]

i'm pretty sure he meant 'male' and 'female' simply as convenient descriptive terms for gameplay styles. I don't think he meant that only men or women will play any type of game.

anyway, i think with any medium you will always have specific styles or modes that evolve. it only limits when people start designing games with those styles in mind and try to prescribe to one style or another.

[nihilocrat]

One could make a game that is, quite literally, about hunting and gathering, with the choice to do either and thus either go into the classic male or female role.

[Fable]

Phhhhhhhhhhhhhbtttbahahahahhaha :D. I love things like this.
Gender roles are not consistent enough among different cultures to definitively say "this is the natural role of gender A". For every instance you discover that supports your ideas on the original male/female division of labor, you'll find another example that completely blows it out of the water.
I don't go into a store and say to myself "omg a COOKING game I must buy it!!" Being a girl doesn't impact my purchasing decisions. I'm guessing the instant you see a game about football, you're not clammering for it either just cuz you're a dude.

[Lucaz]

i'm pretty sure he meant 'male' and 'female' simply as convenient descriptive terms for gameplay styles. I don't think he meant that only men or women will play any type of game.

I'm pretty sure of this too. Tt's better the discussion like this, and the male/female dicotomy is commonly used in this way.

There a few games that work well in both ways. Ico is one, making you help Yorda but also fight enemies.

Most 4x games allow the player to play the way thay prefer, being as violent or diplomatic, careful or abrupt as they want, so it can go both ways.

[Fable]

Tell that to EA and their "EA Girls" division. Oi....

Personally, I've always enjoyed games that encouraged a lot of customization and creativity. Had The Sims been only a dollhouse sim, I'd never have picked it up. But the idea of building a house and how it would be designed and where everything would be placed for an efficient, aesthetically pleasing and mood-boosting environment sucked me in for hours.
Well, that and it was hilarious to tell a boob to cook and watch him accidentally light his house on fire. Me and my sister spent a lot of time coming up with sadistic ways to torture our Sims. My personal favorite was the Tower of Torture, where the only bathroom in the house was on the top floor. They'd piss themselves before they could make it every single time.

[Lyx]

*bangs head on keyboard*

Until i saw this thread, i thought that all regulars on the boards at least have SOME degree of intelligence.

Seriously, for someone who likes indiegames, you have a serious "follow the majority"-issue, Paul. And i do not just mean this regarding this thread - your "ideology" is a constant theme in your posts. "Empiricism over analytics", "Dont innovate, repeat what has been done before", "Everything is subjective", "Gender-roles are based on biological 'instincts', and santa actually exists"... why with such a mentality, you are an indiegamer, is something i really dont get at all.

[Fable]

This is actually a good point. It's not exactly split gender wise, but based on personality. However, a female IS more likely to have those caretaking instincts, and a male is also, conversely, more likely to have those hunting ones. Only natural. 

There's too many incredibly sadistic women for that to be true. They'd sooner stab you than "caretake" you.

[Inanimate]

[/quote]

This is actually a good point. It's not exactly split gender wise, but based on personality. However, a female IS more likely to have those caretaking instincts, and a male is also, conversely, more likely to have those hunting ones. Only natural. 

There's too many incredibly sadistic women for that to be true. They'd sooner stab you than "caretake" you.

Yeah, I understand that.  In real life, this doesn't apply at all. But what's commonly known as the 'feminine side', and the 'masculine side' are like that.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Ok, ignoring the variations, if we treat MALE and FEMALE as personality types instead of gender (so as to avoid stereotyping), males tend to like competition while females tend to like cooperation.

There's a correlation between competition and offense, and cooperation and defense. Kill and save, they're all related in the same manor. So you can divide up tasks/classes amongst a range of MALE to FEMALE, in terms of RPG classes, you'd have KNIGHT being male, and WHITE MAGE being female, and the others in between usually.

Yet, at the core of an RPG, there's fighting, which is generally viewed as a male thing. My best design is a co-op game, with both offensive and defensive characters. Males would pick the offense, females would pick the defense, yet they're still cooperating to kill. Sure, a female might be more inclined to play if she could pick a character that could stand back and heal (and I know quite a few females that fit into this category, from trying to get them to play super smash bros; they always pick kirby and just fly around) but still, there's definitely a testosterone bias.

But, outside of the abstract (games involving like marbles, or funky puzzles), it's tough to make a game that appeals to both sides, because it'll always feel like a compromise to someone.

Luckily, everyone has a little bit of the opposite gender in their personality, so it shouldn't be that bad to make games which appeal to all people.

[Matt Thorson]

*bangs head on keyboard*

Until i saw this thread, i thought that all regulars on the boards at least have SOME degree of intelligence.

Seriously, for someone who likes indiegames, you have a serious "follow the majority"-issue, Paul. And i do not just mean this regarding this thread - your "ideology" is a constant theme in your posts. "Empiricism over analytics", "Dont innovate, repeat what has been done before", "Everything is subjective", "Gender-roles are based on biological 'instincts', and santa actually exists"... why with such a mentality, you are an indiegamer, is something i really dont get at all.

Whoa.  Who the hell are you?

Paul's ideology is a constant theme through his posts... but since when does having a strong opinion make you un-indie?  If anything, having a strong opinion is incredibly indie.  Not to mention he was just borrowing gender stereotypes to attach arbitrary labels to two gameplay styles; not claim that all females prefer one type of game over another biologically.  What is un-indie is you trying to force your ideology on him.

Anyway, Team Fortress 2 sprang up in my mind when I read this thread.  The Medic and Engineer classes heal and support the team with teleporters/sentries and could be classified as female classes much more than any other classes in the game.  However, they're still not close enough to games like The Sims or Animal Crossing for me to declare TF2 a true male+female game.  Good medics and engineers will be in the thick of combat and must defend themselves quite often (both have firearms and melee weapons).  Still, on a spectrum of male->female gameplay, TF2 would be much farther toward female than any other FPS I've played.

Am I wrong in associating 'female gameplay' with 'grinding'?  The most female aspect of TF2 I can think of is the Engineer's desire to upgrade all his structures to the maximum level and keep them there.  The female aspect of RPGs is the levelling, which, without the male aspect of tactical combat, would be simple grinding.  Also, I see Animal Crossing as quite possibly the most female game I can think of, and much of it is simply 'grinding' to find the right furniture or fossils, etc.

[Inanimate]

Ok, ignoring the variations, if we treat MALE and FEMALE as personality types instead of gender (so as to avoid stereotyping), males tend to like competition while females tend to like cooperation.

There's a correlation between competition and offense, and cooperation and defense. Kill and save, they're all related in the same manor. So you can divide up tasks/classes amongst a range of MALE to FEMALE, in terms of RPG classes, you'd have KNIGHT being male, and WHITE MAGE being female, and the others in between usually.

Yet, at the core of an RPG, there's fighting, which is generally viewed as a male thing. My best design is a co-op game, with both offensive and defensive characters. Males would pick the offense, females would pick the defense, yet they're still cooperating to kill. Sure, a female might be more inclined to play if she could pick a character that could stand back and heal (and I know quite a few females that fit into this category, from trying to get them to play super smash bros; they always pick kirby and just fly around) but still, there's definitely a testosterone bias.

But, outside of the abstract (games involving like marbles, or funky puzzles), it's tough to make a game that appeals to both sides, because it'll always feel like a compromise to someone.

Luckily, everyone has a little bit of the opposite gender in their personality, so it shouldn't be that bad to make games which appeal to all people.

This is EXACTLY what I was getting at! You just put it into words far better.

[Problem Machine]

Firstly: Gender is regarded among many as being distinct from biological sex and more representative of ones alignment along boundaries, however nebulous and/or imaginary those may be.

Secondly: There's almost certainly some broad trends in psychology that differentiate the sexes. It's not ignorant or offensive to suggest that is the case. What is offensive is to apply broad trends among groups to individuals, and seeing as no one in this thread has done that I may respectfully submit that those who attacked Paul's theories may have jumped the gun a little (and, in one case, a lot).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i kind of expected this response, it's good to see that at least a few people got value out of the idea though. this is a contentious subject, so i think it's best to ignore the responses objecting to the worldview type stuff, since that'll lead nowhere. although one point:

*bangs head on keyboard*

Until i saw this thread, i thought that all regulars on the boards at least have SOME degree of intelligence.

Seriously, for someone who likes indiegames, you have a serious "follow the majority"-issue, Paul. And i do not just mean this regarding this thread - your "ideology" is a constant theme in your posts. "Empiricism over analytics", "Dont innovate, repeat what has been done before", "Everything is subjective", "Gender-roles are based on biological 'instincts', and santa actually exists"... why with such a mentality, you are an indiegamer, is something i really dont get at all.

i don't agree with any of those, actually (besides, shouldn't the topic be actually about the topic and not about me?) but i certainly never said any of those things, and if you've played my games you'd probably know that

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

to respond to the on-topic responses though,

Not entirely thought out:

I have long dreamed of making a multiplayer cooperative game where the gameplay style is totally different for each of the playable characters. To give a lame example, borrowing the voice with an internet connection trope, one player might be a spy (male?) and the other player is the voice with the internet (female?).

I would suggest diversifying the possible roles beyond just gender, and to not actually discourage people from playing as the "wrong" gender by alienating them with exaggerated character stereotypes. Let them choose what type of gameplay they want, and if it happens to match the stereotype then so be it, but don't be patronizing.

possible, many mmo's do this. supposedly there are female roles in mmo's (crafting and such) and male roles (monster and dungeon stuff). so mmorpgs already allow this to a degree.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Ok, ignoring the variations, if we treat MALE and FEMALE as personality types instead of gender (so as to avoid stereotyping), males tend to like competition while females tend to like cooperation.

There's a correlation between competition and offense, and cooperation and defense. Kill and save, they're all related in the same manor. So you can divide up tasks/classes amongst a range of MALE to FEMALE, in terms of RPG classes, you'd have KNIGHT being male, and WHITE MAGE being female, and the others in between usually.

Yet, at the core of an RPG, there's fighting, which is generally viewed as a male thing. My best design is a co-op game, with both offensive and defensive characters. Males would pick the offense, females would pick the defense, yet they're still cooperating to kill. Sure, a female might be more inclined to play if she could pick a character that could stand back and heal (and I know quite a few females that fit into this category, from trying to get them to play super smash bros; they always pick kirby and just fly around) but still, there's definitely a testosterone bias.

But, outside of the abstract (games involving like marbles, or funky puzzles), it's tough to make a game that appeals to both sides, because it'll always feel like a compromise to someone.

Luckily, everyone has a little bit of the opposite gender in their personality, so it shouldn't be that bad to make games which appeal to all people.

i think there's a lot of cooperation in hunting as well, so i don't think there's a perfect 1:1 ratio between hunting/caretaking and competition/cooperation. but i agree with this comment generally -- especially the bit about the different classes. it's a pity though that there's only usually one caretaking class in RPGs (healer) and so many offensive classes -- it'd be interesting to see a wider variety of caretaking classes in an RPG. some RPGs do this to a degree though (engineer, thief, etc. -- supportive skill-based classes).