next »

[Bandages]

He should not have agreed to put it in the Bundle. It's obvious he really doesn't have the motivation to work on it much anymore (if at all), so it seems to me like he just wanted to milk a few bucks out of it while he still can before he totally gives up on it.

k then enjoy the quarter million dollars or whatever you "earned"

yeah these

[ChevyRay]

EDIT: Actually screw it, i'm not getting into this too ridiculous. You guys keep tryin, though.

[deathtotheweird]

Other than that, I see more or less the same "why was X included when I like Y better?" bullshit.

Uh, no. I was saying Why was X (Cortex Command, an unfinished barely playable game) included when Y is finished and fully playable. Even if Y was a game I didn't like, I would still feel better as long as it was finished and playable and not a buggy mess that will never be finished.

Define "Active Development" Data. Because I don't think your style of development fits under that definition I am used to. Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, and Overgrowth? Sure, I could agree that they are actively being developed. Cortex Command? Doesn't seem like it to me.

Which isn't a problem. But selling it under the pretense of it being actively developed when it appears to be in hiatus, isn't cool. And _if_ it is actively being developed, even a few lines in your twitter about occasionally progress would greatly relieve some of the concerns many people have over the development of the game. Certainly that wouldn't take but a few seconds out of your life wouldn't it? That isn't really asking for much, if it is true you are working on the game that is.

[nihilocrat]

Guys.

It's a pay-what-you-want sale.

Even though it's not a completed game, and packaged with many completed ones, if you are so strained for cash that it makes you angry to waste some of it (which I definitely understand, only recently emerging from a financial state of "fuck there's not enough money for groceries what do we do?") be glad that you have 4 other complete games that you could name your price on.


That said... Cortex Command is awesome.

It's is like getting out your G.I. Joes and playing with them on the mound of dirt in the backyard. You have to bring a lot of imagination to the game or be happy with just making up your own fun; it's currently more like a very detailed sandbox instead of a game, but even then I still like it. Makes me think of early Mount & Blade in that respect. I don't expect anyone to do the same so they agree with me that it's a cool game, that's a lame argument, I am just saying there's something definitely of value already there.

I appreciate the fact that it's hard to even land three of your dudes with a dropship without someone getting horribly maimed. It does a weird balancing act of being a neverending source of dark slapstick humor and a very intense and difficult sandbox action game.

[ChevyRay]

I don't really think that's the heart of the argument here though, nihilocrat. I think people are more concerned about the fact that:

1) the game is in the bundle despite being incomplete
2) many fans of the game and pre-orderers feel the game never will be complete
3) the game will be making money from this bundle despite the above two points

But it sure takes some digging to figure that out, because angry gamers are the hardest people to understand, and the layers of sarcasm really don't help. People just need to have the balls to say what they think and then explain themselves, otherwise they're just dropping hateful, vague statements, attributing false behaviour to others that aren't necessarily displaying it, and behaving like trolls. (Data's initial response was equally bad, but I think he and allen both smartened up)

By the way I have no previous knowledge of Cortex Command, and have never tried it. I do own this bundle now, though.

[Melly]

I'm not going to defend Data's first post in the thread (Data, friendly tip, first impressions are very important), but some of the posts here are quite bitter and have some pretty unwarranted personal attacks in them.

What do you guys say you all chill out a bit, leave the ad hominen stick back home, and voice your opinions and criticism politely?

Also tone down the sarcasm. Or have you people forgotten that tone and expression isn't carried over very well in text?

[Chris Whitman]

Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, and Overgrowth? Sure, I could agree that they are actively being developed. Cortex Command? Doesn't seem like it to me.

That is some 18-hour work day, not leaving your house for weeks at a time stuff. It's great that we have people producing work like that, because it means a lot of neat stuff, but simply not everyone is willing to or capable of sticking to that kind of schedule. You cannot expect to buy the better part of someone's life for $20, even if the work of some other developers has led you to believe that this is a standard.

As for why Wolfire made the bundle choices they did, I assume they picked things they, personally, liked and wanted to share.

I enjoy every day the fact that I can make decisions, quite publicly, predicated on things I like without facing constant criticism. I see no reason not to extend this courtesy to other people. If they want to put Cortex Command into a pay-what-you-want bundle for developers and charity, just because they like it, then more power to them. I don't feel like they owe anyone anything on this.

[s0]

Or have you people forgotten that tone and expression isn't carried over very well in text?

I've never really understood that.

[floatstarpx]

well, I bought the bundle for Machinarium and Revenge of the Titans... so CC and Osmos were just nice bonuses. Haven't actually loaded them up yet...I'm a bit flooded with games at the moment, and I've got too much work to do too...splitting that free couple of hours between 8-9 half finished games doesn't really give me much of a chance.

aaanyway I'm not sure what people are getting an angry boner about here, tbh... don't get angry tigsourds.

[ChevyRay]

aaanyway I'm not sure what people are getting an angry boner about here, tbh... don't get angry tigsourds.

I thought my last post with the 3 bullet points cleared this up quite well, but maybe not.

[moi]

putting an unfinished game is ok if it's clearly stated and the people complaining are wrong.
That said Data's aggessive response is a bit surprising considering the gift he is getting, he could make a little PR effort here.

I'm personally more annoyed by the me-too fanboyism from the usual suspects, but hey, it's TIGsource, eh.

[ChevyRay]

I'm personally more annoyed by the me-too fanboyism from the usual suspects

Me too.











Jk. But yeah, just re-quoting an angry and ineffectual complaint made by another poster just because you feel the same way, but still failing to even attempt to justify yourself (nobody's saying you can't, but what can it hurt to try?) just bogs up the thread and helps nobody.

On a personal note:

putting an unfinished game is ok if it's clearly stated and the people complaining are wrong.

I actually also think that the bundles would be cooler if they featured fully completed games, or at least games that were guaranteed (or at least appeared more likely) to be completed. Partially because it'd be more of a treat to the buyers of the bundle, and they'd probably be more likely to ship out more cash for the developers and/or charities, and also because the indie bundle, I think, sets the standard for a lot of other knock-off indie bundles that tend to follow in its wake.

[deathtotheweird]

That is some 18-hour work day, not leaving your house for weeks at a time stuff. It's great that we have people producing work like that, because it means a lot of neat stuff, but simply not everyone is willing to or capable of sticking to that kind of schedule. You cannot expect to buy the better part of someone's life for $20, even if the work of some other developers has led you to believe that this is a standard.

Sure I agree, but going around saying the game is in active development is a bit dishonest. For the sake of argument we could say that Minecraft/DF/Overgrowth go beyond what one would consider active development. But that still leaves us with a very vague idea of what active development means when referring to Data Realms.

If they want to put Cortex Command into a pay-what-you-want bundle for developers and charity, just because they like it, then more power to them. I don't feel like they owe anyone anything on this.

Yes, I also agree. I paid for an unfinished version of Cortex Command + 4 other games and I was very aware of that. I do not expect anything more from Data Realms and will only be grateful if I receive future updates. I'm only questioning the choice of including an unfinished game that seems to be in hiatus yet marketed as if it's still in development (which I have to assume is neither true or false).

Like I said, I would like to know why the Humble Bundle guys chose the game over the hundreds of other indie titles that are actually finished, and could have added more value to the bundle. Not making any statement on quality, just completeness.

[Dragonmaw]

I think Cortex Command is great (and I bought it back when it cost real money, not this bundle stuff), but I do think that there needs to be more communication and involvement. Especially since Data did announce a new game. While, yeah, it's a "work-in-progress," sometimes it feels like it will never be completed because we hear nothing for weeks or months at a time. The reason why there's backlash is because other games of comparable nature have clearly active development. Cortex Command's development status is murky at best to the outside viewer.

I actually already owned everything in the bundle except Revenge, which is what I bought it for.

[Chris Whitman]

Okay, then to clarify, I understand people who are saying that there might have been a better choice for one particular reason or another. Personally, I think it's a fine choice, because I kind of like the in-development model and I think it's cool to give people the freedom to do that and to work that way (even if with the uncertainty comes, well... uncertainty). It also really helps indies to fund long-term projects that they might not be capable of engaging in otherwise. So I'm probably more willing to be fairly lenient on development timelines.

But then one of my all-time favourite novels ends in the middle of a sentence, so what do I know? I probably prefer things that aren't finished half the time.

But I'm still pretty pissed off at all the people who are intimating that Data is lazy, undeserving of success, not actually working, lying and/or deliberately attempting to steal their money.

[floatstarpx]

aaanyway I'm not sure what people are getting an angry boner about here, tbh... don't get angry tigsourds.

I thought my last post with the 3 bullet points cleared this up quite well, but maybe not.

Nah.. that's what I meant, I don't see why those things would really make someone that angry, especially in the context of this bundle.

[Oddball]

I'm not really bothered that Cortex Command doesn't work on my Mac, I'll just wait 'til it's finished and play it then. After all I'm a Mac gamer so I'm more than accustomed to waiting a long time before being able to play games.

[moi]

I actually also think that the bundles would be cooler if they featured fully completed games, or at least games that were guaranteed (or at least appeared more likely) to be completed.

I agree, in the long term problematic games could make a bad reputation to the bundle initiative.

[s0]

I kind of like the pre-selling model and I think it's cool to give people the freedom to do that and to work that way (even if with the uncertainty comes, well... uncertainty). It also really helps indies to fund long-term projects that they might not be capable of engaging in otherwise. So I'm probably more willing to be fairly lenient on development timelines.

I think as soon as you chosose the in-development model, you're actually giving up a lot of freedoms in terms of development. You're not just someone developing a game anymore, you have a customer base/community you're responsible for. And this isn't just about money, it's also about "emotional" investment and genuinely caring about the project.  Once you're in that situation of (passively or semi-actively) involving customers into the dev process, you can't just continue developing the game at completely at your own pace. There's a certain degree of professionalism that's now expected from you, and if you don't adhere to that, your customers are going be pissed off (and rightfully so).

So the bottom line is, preselling your game is a double-edged sword and it's not a situation where you can have your cake and eat it too. That's how I see it anyway.

Also note that I didn't own Cortex Command prior to the bundle and haven't been following all that much, I'm just trying to illustrate that people being dissatisfied which Data's way of handling things is justified and has nothing to do with "entitlement" or being a "spoiled brat" or anything of the sort.

[Chris Whitman]

My point is that it allows people to fund long-term projects, which, for people who need funding so they can afford to work, is good. Obviously it comes with certain sacrifices, but you can't always have the ideal of working for as long as you want on something without income.

How much professionalism it requires, and the regularity of updates or progress reports it requires is really a matter of public perception. I get the notion here that people think that if they pay me $20 they become my boss somehow, and to me that just isn't acceptable.