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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralIGF Thread 2012
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Alex May
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« Reply #1140 on: February 24, 2012, 05:06:36 am »

I find it funny how lenient the positions towards the (not so) judges have become. It looks like you, in general accept this travesty.

There's only a couple of points to assimilate here. IGF is seemingly non exclusive on entry but it is on judging. They accept happily the 95 dollah and what do they give in return? Jack shit.

The games, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, should have been played a fair amount. Any judge that didn't comply with the task given to him failed miserably and lets just hope they are removed in the future.

For Christ's sake, two months to fairly analise a game and there was no time to do it? Bullshit!

Better they create restricting standards to entrants or just remodel the business. Paying 95 dollars for a promise at a fair judging and not having it, in my eyes, is theft. Basically, a service was purchased and the provider didn't deliver.

This is exactly the kind of needlessly angry and hyperbolic tone I am talking about. Posting stuff like this really solves nothing and just makes everyone who is already angry angrier.

To say this: "They accept happily the 95 dollah and what do they give in return? Jack shit." is just totally unfair, and probably pretty hurtful.

I agree that having months to play 16 or so games is enough time. If you do, why not apply to be a judge? Email Brandon and offer your services. I'm not saying you'll be accepted but, you know, walk the walk. The more judges there are, the less burden on each there will be.

Your last paragraph is massively insulting to so many people.

"Better they create restricting standards to entrants or just remodel the business. Paying 95 dollars for a promise at a fair judging and not having it, in my eyes, is theft. Basically, a service was purchased and the provider didn't deliver."

1) What do you mean by "restricting standards to entrants"?
2) It's not a business.
3) There are no promises made, nor services offered as Aaron has pointed out.
4) What purchase? What item do you purchase when you send an entry fee to the IGF?
5) Theft? Seriously? Get your shit together.

As I've mentioned, in cases where people feel they didn't get what they perceived to be fair return on their $95 entry fee, attempts are made by Brandon and Simon to sort it out, as happened in the RC case. If people want to reject those offers, *shrug* that's up to them.
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« Reply #1141 on: February 24, 2012, 05:08:32 am »

I agree that it's piss poor when people in any walk of life don't do what they volunteered to do.

But nowhere on the IGF site does it say they are offering a service or a promise.

eh, i dunno about that

http://www.igf.com/rules.html

Quote
Entered Games initially will be evaluated by a selection of judges from a total of 100-200 individuals picked by the Sponsor (the “Nominating Committee”). Members of the Nominating Committee may include independent and 'mainstream' professional game designers, notable indie-friendly video game journalists, and other individuals familiar with video game design.
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« Reply #1142 on: February 24, 2012, 05:11:51 am »

As I've mentioned, in cases where people feel they didn't get what they perceived to be fair return on their $95 entry fee, attempts are made by Brandon and Simon to sort it out, as happened in the RC case. If people want to reject those offers, *shrug* that's up to them.

what about cases like this:

Quote
Mikael Hedberg
February 23, 2012 at 4:38 am

This happened to me way back as well. We submitted a download link to our PC game, which was hosted on our own server. The link was unique to IGF, and it never got a single hit.

Obviously, we brought this up, only to be completely ignored. Only when this started getting a fair bit of publicity via slashdot did they contact us about it with about the same reply you had. We talked to them, and got an apology but not much else – they offered to send us some stuff. We accepted and gave them a shipping address, deciding it wasn’t worth more of our time (we had a game to work on after all).

So that was the end of the story. And I mean the end of the story, since the part where the stuff they promised actually arrives never happened either.

that sounds more like they accepted the offer, but then nothing happened

it also sounds like the igf completely ignored the issue at first, despite him contacting them. it was only when it got publicity that they actually made some attempt at resolving the issue -- and then didn't follow through on it
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Alex May
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« Reply #1143 on: February 24, 2012, 05:15:43 am »

Yes, I doubt that is seen as acceptable from anyone's viewpoint. I briefly wonder how frequently this level of disappointment occurs.
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« Reply #1144 on: February 24, 2012, 05:24:11 am »

i don't really understand the frequency defense. let's say that someone was accidentally double-charged for my game immortal defense due to some accident, maybe they clicked on 'buy' twice or whatever, or some server error. that happens occasionally. then they email me about it. no matter how many similar cases i didn't ignore and responded to promptly, if i ignore that one guy, and never reply to his email and never give him a refund, that's enough to discredit me, even if he's the only case. if i promise to give him a refund, *and then don't*, that would be even worse for me. in certain things you just have to be perfect, not next to perfect
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« Reply #1145 on: February 24, 2012, 05:24:46 am »

Is there a minimum computer system requirement for judges? I can play most indie games here on the TIGForums, but as soon as it goes 3D or something that requires more than an embedded GPU, my computer chokes. If you're assigned a game that your computer can't handle, can you just alert whoever's in charge and get assigned a different game?
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Laserbrain Studios
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« Reply #1146 on: February 24, 2012, 05:26:06 am »

yeah, that was mentioned earlier. there's a redundancy factor to cover that. but you still should *inform* someone that you can't run the game, so that they can assign someone else to it
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Alex May
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« Reply #1147 on: February 24, 2012, 05:31:16 am »

in certain things you just have to be perfect, not next to perfect
Yeah you are right and I agree. I have probably let people down with Eufloria support a few times, which isn't right and they probably said some bad things about me wherever. It's wrong but it does happen. Probably had Mikael been in more regular contact with Simon at the time they might have received their stuff? I also think in that case they should have got an entry fee refund.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #1148 on: February 24, 2012, 05:44:35 am »

yeah, that was mentioned earlier. there's a redundancy factor to cover that. but you still should *inform* someone that you can't run the game, so that they can assign someone else to it

So there's no minimum system requirement? Cool. Think I'll apply next year.
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« Reply #1149 on: February 24, 2012, 05:56:19 am »

i find their judge selection process weird. for instance, from what i remember, dragonmaw recommended ortoslon to be a judge, he's the best judge of indie games i know of, and plays most of them, and is very involved in the community in the form of creating tons of gameplay videos about indie games, and for some reason they didn't like the idea or didn't offer him a judging spot
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« Reply #1150 on: February 24, 2012, 06:05:34 am »

Paul:
Quote
@ortoslon: "i hadn't volunteered to judge igf because i can't stand certain game mechanics and entire genres #toopicky"


Email Brandon and offer your services. I'm not saying you'll be accepted but, you know, walk the walk. The more judges there are, the less burden on each there will be.
Good idea.
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« Reply #1151 on: February 24, 2012, 06:38:37 am »

I agree that it's piss poor when people in any walk of life don't do what they volunteered to do.

But nowhere on the IGF site does it say they are offering a service or a promise.

eh, i dunno about that

http://www.igf.com/rules.html

Quote
Entered Games initially will be evaluated by a selection of judges from a total of 100-200 individuals picked by the Sponsor (the “Nominating Committee”). Members of the Nominating Committee may include independent and 'mainstream' professional game designers, notable indie-friendly video game journalists, and other individuals familiar with video game design.

TLDR

It's a fair cop guv  Shrug
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« Reply #1152 on: February 24, 2012, 06:53:48 am »

This is exactly the kind of needlessly angry and hyperbolic tone I am talking about. Posting stuff like this really solves nothing and just makes everyone who is already angry angrier.

To say this: "They accept happily the 95 dollah and what do they give in return? Jack shit." is just totally unfair, and probably pretty hurtful.
I don't intend to sound angry or in anyway sound like a prick. I did not participate in such thing, probably never will. They do promise a review, amirite?
PS: Paul beat me to it.

I agree that having months to play 16 or so games is enough time. If you do, why not apply to be a judge? Email Brandon and offer your services. I'm not saying you'll be accepted but, you know, walk the walk. The more judges there are, the less burden on each there will be.
I could, and I just might do that. If he so much posts that he wants new blood, I'd be happy to offer my services. I have a full time job but still can squeeze a few minutes to review games.
Your last paragraph is massively insulting to so many people.

"Better they create restricting standards to entrants or just remodel the business. Paying 95 dollars for a promise at a fair judging and not having it, in my eyes, is theft. Basically, a service was purchased and the provider didn't deliver."

1) What do you mean by "restricting standards to entrants"?
2) It's not a business.
3) There are no promises made, nor services offered as Aaron has pointed out.
4) What purchase? What item do you purchase when you send an entry fee to the IGF?
5) Theft? Seriously? Get your shit together.

As I've mentioned, in cases where people feel they didn't get what they perceived to be fair return on their $95 entry fee, attempts are made by Brandon and Simon to sort it out, as happened in the RC case. If people want to reject those offers, *shrug* that's up to them.
Restricting standards can be various. Only completed/released games, or games not yet on sale. Games made by X number of people, an earlier submission period to allow better judging. Hell, there are no shortage of options. Devs could add checkpoints, showing where the judges got in their game. Judges could be ordered to play games while logged on, so that data.

If you don't see the 95$ as a business transaction, I don't know what to tell you. Despite what you think, it is a business. You pay 95$ to enter a compo where your item is completely ignored by those in charge to review it. Do you not find this shady? I do, man, I do. Maybe we don't value 95$, but for me, it's a decent amount of money, and quite steep for such an event, though I don't know the prices in other events like this.

Don't think of me the wrong way, but IGF crapped on their own faces. Worse still, crapped on the faces of those entitled to be reviewed. I'm not angry because I have no reason to. If I had, I'd go directly to the ones in charge.

I find it rather sad, really.
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Alex May
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« Reply #1153 on: February 24, 2012, 07:45:57 am »

I dunno man, it's not a business transaction when you pay to get into a music festival, right? You just pay and you get to go in. Maybe one of the bands doesn't turn up, or plays like shit because of too many drugs.

It's like you are making out that they DELIBERATELY don't review some games. They fucking try, dude, games that don't have enough votes get sent around to people, Brandon emails out, adds comments on games asking for more judging, etc. When you say shit like "IGF crapped on their own faces" it becomes really hard to take anything you say seriously. YES it's shit that some games don't get their due, YES obviously everyone wants to fix that. What else is there to say?

Sign up to be a judge, or start actively promoting and helping out other indie game festivals. Do whatever you can to promote indie games if you feel that strongly about it.
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« Reply #1154 on: February 24, 2012, 07:56:30 am »

It's not theft. If you purport that the judging is unfair, then it's a lottery, or alternatively, a donation.

I've said this elsewhere, it's quite succinct: any and all controversy revolves around the facts that:

* Everyone thinks it's a big, life-changing deal to get a nomination or award.
* Everyone wants a fair chance.
* Everyone has a different definition of "fair"
* Everyone has a different opinion about how much $95 is really worth.

Because these things fluctuate so wildly from person to person, I don't suspect there will ever be an end to some kind of IGF drama, or drama surrounding any other high-prestige contest with an entry fee.


Jenn was lashing out like a child. She might have made some good arguments but in a way completely deserving of scorn. Anyone else with a similar attitude and inability to state their case (positive, negative, whatever) with some scrupules of respect really needs to re-evaluate their ability to express ideas to other people.
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« Reply #1155 on: February 24, 2012, 08:36:08 am »

he's the best judge of indie games i know of, and plays most of them
wat

but yeah, dragonmaw recommended me a year ago, i felt loved for a minute and forgot about it. when igf started accepting submissions, i saw brandon ask people to send an email describing who they are to volunteer to judge igf. the feeling of "yay, i could judge igf" ran out pretty soon. pros: some prestige, i get to play games i otherwise wouldn't have played. cons: responsibility, i will dislike most assigned games, possible problems with running games on a low-end PC. for me, cons outweigh pros here
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« Reply #1156 on: February 24, 2012, 08:53:03 am »

the low end pc thing isn't really a con since they don't require that you be able to run every game, but the rest of your cons make sense yes

I've said this elsewhere, it's quite succinct: any and all controversy revolves around the facts that:

* Everyone thinks it's a big, life-changing deal to get a nomination or award.
* Everyone wants a fair chance.
* Everyone has a different definition of "fair"
* Everyone has a different opinion about how much $95 is really worth.

...?

i think that any and all controversy revolves around these instead:

* some people have their game only played by judges for a few minutes, or not at all
* instead of admitting that those judges should have put more effort into their evaluations, the igf stance is that games can be judged in a few minutes, and that if a judge doesn't want to play your game for more than 200 seconds, that's your fault
* some people requested a refund when they learned their game wasn't played at all. some people got that refund, some people were ignored, or promised some form of compensation and never got it
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« Reply #1157 on: February 24, 2012, 09:18:18 am »

I dunno man, it's not a business transaction when you pay to get into a music festival, right? You just pay and you get to go in. Maybe one of the bands doesn't turn up, or plays like shit because of too many drugs.
If the show is cancelled you get a refund. There's that difference.

It's like you are making out that they DELIBERATELY don't review some games. They fucking try, dude, games that don't have enough votes get sent around to people, Brandon emails out, adds comments on games asking for more judging, etc. When you say shit like "IGF crapped on their own faces" it becomes really hard to take anything you say seriously. YES it's shit that some games don't get their due, YES obviously everyone wants to fix that. What else is there to say?
Are you sure some of the reviewers did not forfeit their responsibilities? Will you put your hands in the fire for them? I won't. Human nature is a bitch.

To say "We apologize for the mishaps and will do our best to ensure a just participation to anyone who enters. We will do this and that". I'd be fine with that, do you not agree?

Sign up to be a judge, or start actively promoting and helping out other indie game festivals. Do whatever you can to promote indie games if you feel that strongly about it.
You are better than that to throw that kind of advice. That is a moot point. I just feel surprised for the lack of commitment by some parts that damaged the whole.
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Alex May
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« Reply #1158 on: February 24, 2012, 09:48:58 am »

To say "We apologize for the mishaps and will do our best to ensure a just participation to anyone who enters. We will do this and that". I'd be fine with that, do you not agree?

I think that's fair, yes. Can you see, though, the difference between what you've written there and your previous posts? That's what I'm talking about.
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« Reply #1159 on: February 24, 2012, 10:12:13 am »

Speaking as a judge, I know Brandon Boyer tried to get games which have not been seen by many judges to get judged by others. I received several emails throughout the course of the competition that asked for help in judging another game. The situation is hardly perfect, but he works hard to try and give every game a fair shake. Some games slip through the cracks, and that's bound to happen. We (judges, jurors, and organizers) are only human. I think that saying the IGF "takes a dump on people" is disingenuous. And while there are some elements of the IGF I definitely think can be improved - most notably its tendency to give popular, established games more room in the finalist's circle - it's not the awful monstrosity that it seems to be painted as.

This happens every single year. A controversial game is submitted (last year it was Minecraft, this year it was Fez) (note that I don't think these games should have been submitted), and someone who felt their game didn't get the judging it deserves posts an angry diatribe that explodes into drama. EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. It would be nice if we could go one year without somebody getting pissy.

Also I support the return of mandatory feedback.

Also also, there's something to realize insofar as IGF patterns: each category usually has a fair amount of diversity in terms of its finalists. You don't see all pixel art being finalists in Visual, or all proc-gen games being in Technical. The jurors do seem to try and select games which offer different things.
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