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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperArt (Moderator: JWK5)Exile graphics
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Author Topic: Exile graphics  (Read 9013 times)
Arne
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« on: May 04, 2009, 07:15:10 AM »

I worked a bit on my Exile project. well, actually I just started making new stuff from scratch, some of it based on the Beeb version of the game. Most of you may be more familiar with the Amiga version.

Exile for the BBC Micro reference page.

Here's some art:

New roughs:


Old painting:


Here are my problems:

At first I wanted to paint the entire map (which is giganormous, but it seemed like a fun thing to do). At the same time I really liked the angular tiled feel of the Beeb version (rather than the more organic looking Amiga version).

Then I realized that it was a false choice to go for just organic OR angular.

I can have structured corridors, and combine those with more organic caves, a bit like if someone had been cutting mining corridors, bumping into natural caves every now and then.

I could suggest this by placing large mining machines here and there. This brings me to the issue of destructible terrain. Certainly buckets or a quad tree could be used to limit the information density mainly to the surfaces of the cave walls (which the bullets would hit) (the solid rock would rarely be affected and thus use less mem) (empty space would be less affected too).

Then I thought of another interesting solution. I could place sediments and plant life, moss and stuff on the walls, which could be shot off, giving the feeling of destruction / interaction. Some of the plant life could spread via spores and grow back. Stuff that is destroyed could rot, etc (to free up mem). This would make the environment feel like it could be affected even if no tiles can be destroyed. The size of the mining drill mentioned earlier could suggest that the rock is really hard and that's why it won't break even when exposed to Coronium explosions.

A big question which remains is that of the amount of interesting graphical features to use for the foreground (i.e. rock walls) and background. The rock is obviously some sort of cut-through view, and I don't know if I should keep it simple and grainy (sometimes artificially structured) like in the Beeb version, or if I should have large interesting hand painted features. Perhaps the interesting stuff should be put in the background, because the player in in the caves and not inside the walls. It might be distracting to put interesting features inside the walls if the player can't get there. However, the player can't get into the background either! It feels wrong to tempt the player with another dimension.

Perhaps the background and foreground (walls) should be kept mostly simple, with landmarks where needed. This way interactive foreground objects should be the most interesting with nothing to distract. Perhaps the background could be interacted with though, kind of like in Impossible Mission where you turn towards consoles and furniture. There could be special rooms where the backgrounds is obviously rich. A bit like parts of Aquaria where the background can be generic rock at many places, then there's suddenly a big stone with a swirl on which suggests something significant.

However, I do feel that it's slightly confusing to add another dimension to interact with. The player might become paranoid that he's missing something in the background, and it is possible to just put a big swirling stone as a foreground object instead.

Oh yes, now when I think of it there's the pillars which you can run behind.  I haven't thought about those at all. I think the bushes might be in the same layer.

Another thing I'm not sure of is how to approach artificial vs 'organic' rock texture. The Beeb version had quite structured rock. A fully painted look would be more difficult to tile (unless a system like that in Aquaria is employed). It would also suggest that the rock has different levels of hardness which would be bad is the rock is indestructible. I think I'd rather see a more grainy artificial look for the rocks like in the beeb version. I don't know if I should also use artificial colors. I think I want to suggest that the environment was 'made' long ago.

Any thoughts? I suppose the only real way to find out is to make a proper mockup.

Edit: I think that with a blocky approach it feels more like you're moving around in a very graspable/readable interactive game environment, whilst if I were to paint each cave by hand, moving about would feel more like just gliding around on top of a painting, disjointed. There would a lot of special little spots but at the same time none of them would be interactive in a special way. It doesn't feel 'honest' somehow, like everything is fake.


« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 07:53:49 AM by Arne » Logged
Melly
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 07:22:11 AM »

Always love to see your sketches.
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 11:28:19 AM »

is it very wrong and inappropriate that I find the toon hot? damn you 4chan.

too much to read. by the time i reached the bottom i forgot what your first question. i'd suggest you summarize your questions in the end so it is easier to help you with.
I see it as slate vs sedimentary rock. Slate has a more layered, metallic feel to it while sedimentary will have a more organic feel to it.
or igneous. igneous rocks can look darned inorganic. i once had an igneous rock which looked like pumice which quite likely as I feel pumice is a type of igneous rock only.

yeah coming back to this;
if your "hand painted" rock walls are supposed to look anything like your old painting, then screw everything blocky. I WANTZ THAT. seriously it will depend on the level of details vs ease of preparation. I have a veritable sweet tooth for hand painted textures. I really don't think that if they are well done, they confuse the player. Not really interested in the blocky blocky. unless you want the retro look.
ummm was this your question?

and oh, can you put in some samples so i can thumb up my chosen one? All you have to do is listen to me an everything will be fabulous.
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 12:18:23 PM »

I don't think painted backgrounds will detract or distract from the gameyness of the game. If you have the destructive environs as you mentioned and maybe just add little moving details every here and there to reward the player's visual senses it'd be, imho, far more immersive than a tiled world. I've never played exile, but maybe you could have little animated touches in the ground like worms or some kind of life-form crawling around down there every once in a while. Little tufts of grass that move when something runs past them, or dandelion-type plants that explode in puff of spores when struck. These kinds of things, while they don't really affect the gameplay, I think can really add to the atmosphere of a game. Honestly it may very well be kind of bland if you just have a single huge painting on a single layer that doesn't move or change at all ever, but if you give it some motion on other layers it will seem that much more alive and the painted feeling will contribute to the immersion.
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nihilocrat
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 01:56:22 PM »

All you have to do is listen to me an everything will be fabulous.

All you have to do is show some semblance of patience and not demand people to do things just for you and everything will be faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulous.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 01:57:03 PM »

is it very wrong and inappropriate that I find the toon hot? damn you 4chan.

too much to read. by the time i reached the bottom i forgot what your first question. i'd suggest you summarize your questions in the end so it is easier to help you with.

Is this what playing MMO's does to one's brain? Smiley

As an aside, I think I know of at least five different games called Exile; it's a pretty common name. There's those ultima-style RPGs by Spiderweb, there's that Genesis game, etc.

I think having fewer areas and having each painted would be my preference, even if they're very few. You could structure the game such that progress through them was slow enough that you only need a few. Also, painting them will get faster as you go along.
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Alex May
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 01:57:20 PM »

Best game ever. One day we will make this, Arne, you and I. Bum sex optional.
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Will Vale
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 02:24:44 PM »

I love Exile, it's one of my "always wanted to make" games as well. But while I think the painting looks amazing, I think you're right about the interaction issues - tiles feel more solid, and are maybe more true to the spirit of the original (which had a partially procedurally generated map I think?) That's not to say the tiles have to be crisply square though, and you could get back some of the painted feel by having the ability to use big tiles (painted areas) mixed with the others?

The player character with red/white suit and the bubble helmet is brilliant!

Will
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 02:44:01 PM »

The painted style is absolutely gorgeous
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 03:06:48 PM »

That's not to say the tiles have to be crisply square though
Hmmm...I've never seen a platformer with triangular tiles...that could be pretty cool?
or you could go the aquaria route and make the tiles large and scalable/rotateable without being aligned to a grid for maximum versatility?
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Super Joe
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2009, 03:58:30 PM »

exile is cool. the tiny amount of tiles used was cool too.
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Rishav
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2009, 08:57:46 PM »

All you have to do is listen to me an everything will be fabulous.

All you have to do is show some semblance of patience and not demand people to do things just for you and everything will be faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabulous.
was just kidding around. of course he wouldn't make the game "just for me". that wouldn't be ice-cool.

anyway, it will be best if Arne puts in some sample textures so it will be easier to give our opinion on.

Is this what playing MMO's does to one's brain? Smiley
are you sir, saying there is something wrong with my brain?  Lips Sealed
I assure you plentiful of people find it delicious and moist.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 09:01:01 PM by Rishav » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 12:48:09 AM »

Aw man that is awesome.

I would go to great extremes to make a game with you (/your art) Tongue

I've been browsing your blog and I'm wondering, how many of your game concepts have become playable?
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 12:49:47 AM »

that cave is gorgeous Shocked Hand Thumbs Up Right
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Arne
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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 07:05:39 AM »

Exile actually had little worms (maggots) and spore releasing fungus. There were lots of animal life. Wind and particles also livened up the game. Yeah, stuff like that could liven up a static painting too.

The game had a tiny graphics block which was cut up into sprites. The bird (flapping its wings) had a frame which could be flipped upside down. Because of this it had two heads, one on the bottom and one on the top, one of which was always cropped off. The red robot was a cropped version of the chatter bot.


Painted. I tried to preserve the red with green dots feel. Pericles can be a rusted wreck.



Edit: 3 months fulltime to paint the entire map. Sounds like a lot, but on the other hand you never need to figure out how to do an editor and how to make the tiles/chunks and stuff. You can just come up with whatever you like. Of course, every time estimate is *pi.

Pixels. Although I didn't get very far with this. It takes me as long to pixel as it does to paint. I think it would be fun to do 8*8 px tiles and build stuff from them. Small tiles are abstract enough to work as many things.


Painted big tiles: Failed. Because large high fidelity tiles repeats badly.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 07:21:38 AM by Arne » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2009, 07:08:40 AM »

Amazing work. I see a lot of Cortex Command seeping through the cave design.
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 08:54:51 AM »

Loving the art. I like the first orange-and-blue, sketched tunnels very much, and they look like they could be made painlessly with tiles and an aquaria-like system. The painted one posted lower down is getting a bit busy and looks less like part of an interactive game, like you said; although I wonder whether this could be changed by just reducing the contrast inside the rocks (or whatever art term is appropriate here).

What would be very interesting, would be procedurally generation of the painterly style of rock. I imagine you would give it the geometric layout of the level, made in tiles, and some raw brushstrokes and bits and pieces of the painting to look at. It would then warp these around and layer them onto the map. I'm sure this would be a lot of work to get right, but it sounds like the procedural, computer generated feeling is something that you're after.

Also, is there a good reason to be worried about memory? Just making up some numbers, say the game is 1000 by 1000 tiles, and each tile can be destroyed in one of, say, 16 patterns, then that doesn't seem to much to store.
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Arne
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2009, 09:30:56 AM »

Yeah, a painted map gives a less interactive feel, but like someone said, perhaps it can be liven up with a layer of interactive vegetation and stuff. Some spots could have florescent light which could have a local effect on the texture (lighting up the walls and background). I guess I could make an animated gif to try that theory out...

Tiles takes some time to work out if you want them to be tile'able and versatile. I wasn't able to make big painted tiles, and I don't think it will work. To generate a painted look procedurally might prove very difficult, because computers aren't very artistic. You'd get a lot of ugly bad placements of things. The range wouldn't be very good either. Stuff would get repetitive fast.

One thing I can do is paint big chunks of kind of generic rock types, then I use liquefy in Photoshop to distort and make special bits from those. That would speed up the process a lot. For the large solid areas of the map I could use these and be more sloppy.

As for memory, the beeb map is 7 * 5.5 k pixels or so. With a painted map I would keep the geometry as poly lines (with normals), then just stream the texture depending on where the player is. Pixel level destruction (if I go for pixel gfx) would take a lot of memory, but like I said, I could allow for only the surfaces of the tiles to be destroyed. Surface is a lot smaller than area.

About 480p resolution I believe. Just testing. It's good to have a bit view distance in this game. The 1200 version was far too claustrophobic I think.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 09:40:52 AM by Arne » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2009, 09:41:46 AM »

maybe you should give this a quick read through.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3753/the_art_of_braid_creating_a_.php?page=4

like in braid and aquaria they use tiles, but Im wondering if you could make "tiles" in photoshop, so you still have total control over the rotation and lighting of it, but it might help speed up making the huge background. 3 months on one background may make you go crazy. So you can just make large Stones, and big sections that you decorate with different smaller objects to make them look very different. I understand the desire to make a huge special backgroudn where every section is different, but i would be looking for any shortcuts you can get.
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2009, 10:12:29 AM »

It looks.. so.. Gooooood
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