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[phubans]

I actually really liked Evangelion, but then I watched it and a few other favorites of mine when I was around the age of 17 - 18, so I felt like I could really relate to a lot of the teenage characters in anime back then (that and I was far less jaded). EDIT: But I agree with Paul Eres' analysis about how it might have set a new standard for anime that all tried to mimic but only to fail. I think all anime should be experimental in general, and I think that's why I originally liked it so much.

I didn't think I'd ever live to see another decent anime series, but I somehow missed Berserk and ended up seeing it for the first time that was incidentally the very first (and only) time I ever tried magic mushrooms. Needless to say it was a pretty flooring first impression.

I remember really enjoying Escaflowne when I first saw it, too, but that's one that I'm not sure I could appreciate as much now. Not sure why I have that impression; it just feels like it's not manly/surly enough for the tsundere adult I have become.

Fist of the North Star is a good one... I came for the "let's laugh at this show because it's ridiculous" and stayed for the "holy shit this is actually a really compelling story with amazing characters." I never finished the whole series, though.



is one I have been revisiting with my GF recently. I must have watched that show at least 3 - 5 times in the past, making sure I shared it with all my friends. It's really funny and off-the-wall; still holds up well to today's standards, too. In fact, it might have been way ahead of its time because some of the scenes are still shocking and WTF-inducing.

You can watch the entire thing on YouTube, starting here:

Episodes are short, so you can watch them when you're eating or taking a quick 10 minute break.

And yeah, I agree that Grave of the Fireflies is hard to watch. Until my mid-20s, it was the only film I had ever seen that was able to bring me to tears, both times I watched it. I was pretty surprised by this because I had never been that moved by any movie before, and this was a piece of animation! I read somewhere something about the movie being able to bypass our filters because if it were a live-action movie it wouldn't have the same effect because we'd have some sort of defense for handling the scenario, but that it's an animated child instead we're touched directly by the concept rather than the person... Or something? I wish I could find the article now.

Ask me anything about classic anime; I am a guru

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I don't know how true the statement that "many native japanese anime fans in japan prefer 80s anime" is, however it's certainly possible I suppose. Each generation comes with different preferences, values, and troubles, and it's totally possible that they just might not identify with the concerns of the protagonist, as I believe is your case.

Also the contradiction was in the fact you said you believed what you said to be true right after stating that what you say is "neither objective nor infallible". The "certain light" is when you read the "i believe" part in the sense that anything you know is what you believe, subjective or objective, from which you could reason you meant all of what you say you believe is true, or objective. Anyway, let's not get carried off talking about that. ANIMUS ARE MOAR IMPORTENT.

i don't think i said that i don't *identify* with the protagonists. i feel that everyone has many parts -- their weak parts, their strong parts. modern anime tends to focus on the weak parts of people rather than the strong parts. that doesn't mean that i myself don't have weak parts, it just means that i feel that there's a point at which focusing on the weaknesses of mankind and not on the strengths of mankind can be overdone. in a way i feel that people who are weak *especially* need to focus on the strong parts, and that "emo" type personalities could only benefit from watching some heroic stuff too. there's also the idea that people tend to become what they focus on, and all that. it's a pretty complex issue, and i don't think it's as simple as you're presenting it

i also feel you're ignoring marketing forces: i feel that the reason anime is like this is *not* because people prefer it, or because people are somehow wimpier or more emotional, but simply because corporate executives in japan decided that that is what sells better

as for the quote, i think there's a difference between knowledge of thought and knowledge of fact. one can know, factually, that one thinks or believes something while still recognizing that it could be incorrect. this happens all the time. for instance, i believe that my father is in the next room: that is what i believe to be true. but i am not claiming that my knowledge of that is *infallible*. it's possible he left without me noticing, for instance. you can believe something is true without believing you are infallible about it

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

here's a simplified way that i can put what i mean:

let's say that you're a kid who is unhappy with your life, feel misunderstood, have no girlfriend, feel your parents don't understand you, and have no friends, and everyone makes fun of you

which would it be *better* to watch: an anime of someone exactly like you (so that you can feel you aren't alone, and feel that there are other people out there with your problems), or a different anime of someone who is living the life you want to live, who is happy, self-confident, stands up to bullies, has great friends, and is everything you wish you could be. which would you learn more from? which would inspire you to improve more? my guess is the second type

which is not to say the first type of anime doesn't have its place, just that you shouldn't discount the power of seeing a role model in improving someone's life

[ham and brie]

Anyone watching Another or Ano Natsu?

Another is one of the shows I'm following.

but after its enormous success anime strived to out-eva eva, by making their stories even more incomprehensible, and making their characters even more pathetic, and its influence can be felt pretty much in every anime created after it. it's as if the executive producers are like 'this anime won't sell unless it's like eva, so add in some confusing psychological stuff!' -- and none of them do it as well as eva did

I think you don't know much about modern anime. Usually when people complain about modern anime it's because of all the moe shows...

[rdein]

So now that that's resolved: anybody out there watch

SZS is insane and full of references to pretty much everything, but it's cool
too bad there are way too many seasons now (zoku goku poku daigoku daimaou daigokumaou) so its initial effect is a bit washed away

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@ham and brie - that's possible to likely; i don't even know what "moe" even means for instance. i know a lot about classic anime but little about modern anime because whenever i've tried to watch modern anime i've been turned off by how unenjoyable it is to watch. it's possible that anime has entered a new trend after the psychologic/confusing trend

i also don't normally watch anime *tv series*, just anime *movies*, so what i said probably applies more to modern anime movies (like paprika and lain) than to modern anime tv shows

of modern anime, i've only really enjoyed the modern studio ghibli movies and death note, everything else i've tried i couldn't stand enough to get through

@general - to be clearer on what i meant earlier, i didn't mean that heroic anime never dealt with people's problems, because it does. in sailor moon for instance, each of the girls had some type of problem. but it always showed them *overcoming* their problems, rather than succumbing to them, and that's i think the key difference. sailor mercury would overcome her shyness, etc.

[BlueSweatshirt]

phubans:
Despite all this there is still a wide variety of anime out there. There's definitely more shoujo(aimed at girls) stuff around now, but(speaking of market forces) that's because there's a growing market for girls now too. I think it's too assumptive to say "japanese execs decided that <x> sells better" on a whim.

also paul eres:(relates to your comments too, phubs)
That goes back to what I was saying earlier. Role-model vs. personal inspiration. In the modern animes you refer to it's not just about watching someone's weaknesses, but also how they overcome them--It's not just watching someone weep in their misery. The effectiveness of either experience merely depends on how one deals with their problems. I would personally call the personal inspiration one more effective because, rather than seeing someone who is already successful, you can see what someone goes through and what they experience on their road to self-improvement. Seeing how someone else deals with something would be much more helpful to me than just seeing someone who never had the problem in the first place.

I'm going to stop participating in this argument now, we're getting beyond what I'm knowledgeable enough to talk about.(deep psychology and how japanese people think of themselves and deal with their problems, micro economics) Hopefully my perspective will have been insightful.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i agree that showing people overcoming their problems is the way to go, it's just that in most modern anime that i've seen i don't see people doing that. it seems like happy endings are also less common now than in the past

(not that happy endings are mandatory to make good fiction, plenty of good fiction has bad endings. i'm just talking about what i see as a trend towards depressing endings)

[ham and brie]

i also don't normally watch anime *tv series*, just anime *movies*, so what i said probably applies more to modern anime movies (like paprika and lain) than to modern anime tv shows

Lain was a TV anime. I'd actually consider Lain to be the type of TV anime that wouldn't get made anymore, due to modern trends in anime. And, I don't think it's influenced by NGE. The writer has said he hadn't seen NGE when he started Lain.

Paprika is consistent with Satoshi Kon's work on Magnetic Rose and Perfect Blue, which are too early to have been influenced by NGE (Perfect Blue came out later, but would have been planned out before and based on an earlier novel).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ah, forgot about lain being tv -- i do remember a theme song now. i watched it on VHS

it's possible those particular examples weren't influenced by eva, but they were just examples, there's thousands like them

for different examples of evangelion's influence, there's this quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anime#2000s

The "Evangelion-era" trend continued into the 2000s with Evangelion-inspired mecha anime such as RahXephon (2002) and Zegapain (2006) - RahXephon was also intended to help revive 1970s-style mecha designs. The experimental late night anime trend popularized by Serial Experiments Lain also continued into the 2000s with experimental anime such as Boogiepop Phantom (2000), Texhnolyze (2003), Paranoia Agent (2004) and Gantz (2004).

so perhaps i should have said the eva-lain movement rather than just eva, since according to that lain was more influential on anime than i had realized

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

this part of that article is also interesting:

The 2000s also mark a trend of emphasis of the otaku subculture. A notable critique of this otaku subculture is found in the 2006 anime Welcome to the N.H.K., which features a hikikomori protagonist and explores the effects and consequences of various Japanese sub-cultures, such as otaku, lolicon, internet suicide, massively multiplayer online games and multi-level marketing.

so perhaps the main thing i don't like about modern anime is its focus on the otaku culture? it became more self-reflective and "navel-gazing", which perhaps made it less appealing to americans outside of the otaku culture

in other words, you could enjoy anime in the 80s without being a "japanophile" and without knowing a bunch of special terminology like "moe" and whatever, but it seems harder to enjoy modern anime without knowing a lot about it

[Alevice]

wehre does manga stand on this

[s0]

in other words, you could enjoy anime in the 80s without being a "japanophile" and without knowing a bunch of special terminology like "moe" and whatever, but it seems harder to enjoy modern anime without knowing a lot about it

that's the impression i get too.

[Theophilus]

whats an nge

[ink.inc]

short for neon genesis evangelion

[phubans]

Hmm, yeah, I think that might be my problem with anime; it's being dominated by series rather than movies. Even with the 80s - 90s era of anime that I love so much, there's still few and far between series that I actually enjoy, the few of which I mentioned in my previous long post. I'd say my favorite anime movies are from the Streamline Pictures era, as well as a few others:

- Akira
- Vampire Hunter D (the original, not that Bloodlust crap)
- Ninja Scroll
- Demon City Shinjuku
- Wicked City
- Fist of the North Star
- Golgo 13: The Professional
- Harmageddon
- Grave of the Fireflies
- Anything by Miyazaki and/or Ghibli (Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, Nausicaa, Laputa, Porco Rosso)
- Angel's Egg
- Ghost in the Shell (ranks pretty low on my list, but still more visually interesting than most of the stuff we have now)

Short series/OVAs/compilations are also good:

- Blood Reign: Curse of the Yoma
- Neo-Tokyo
- Robot Carnival
- 3x3 Eyes
- Doomed Megalopolis
- Goku: Midnight Eye
- GoldenBoy


...So there you have it; a list of at least 20 of my most highly recommended anime (not including long series, which were previously mentioned)... Man, maybe I should start a blog or something? Or maybe I should just stop wasting so much of my day in this thread 

Wow, like 10 replies in the time it took me to post this :S

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

wehre does manga stand on this

i don't read manga much so i've no idea. i've only read like 4 manga ever:

- narcissu
- blade of the immortal
- akira
- phoenix (by osamu tezuka)

those were on the recommendations of my brother, who is much more into manga than i am

[BlueSweatshirt]

in other words, you could enjoy anime in the 80s without being a "japanophile" and without knowing a bunch of special terminology like "moe" and whatever, but it seems harder to enjoy modern anime without knowing a lot about it

that's the impression i get too.

Yeah, that is true. Although that stuff is generally pretty subtle and more of a fan service/fan parody. Speaking of which, I do hate the trend of "fan service" in modern anime, which amounts to perverted camera angles, etc.

Also, Paul I'm more curious about what modern animes have you seen, so that we can have a better idea of what shows have formed your opinion.

[ham and brie]

so perhaps the main thing i don't like about modern anime is its focus on the otaku culture? it became more self-reflective and "navel-gazing", which perhaps made it less appealing to americans outside of the otaku culture

in other words, you could enjoy anime in the 80s without being a "japanophile" and without knowing a bunch of special terminology like "moe" and whatever, but it seems harder to enjoy modern anime without knowing a lot about it

Yes, this is common.

Otaku anime is definitely not all stuff like NGE though. I mean, there are certainly a score of shows like RahXephon which show that influence, but equally there are loads of shows that are meant as just fun, easy to watch, relaxing entertainment. But those will probably also be aimed at typical otaku and/or children and even the stuff that isn't is fairly niche.

[DavidCaruso]

I'm personally more interested in hearing why Paul thinks Star Wars is bad and destroyed sci fi myself. Maybe make a new thread on that.