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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

the rape in hotline miami is a part of the story; so that's a pretty good example of why someone would care about a game's story without being a fan of the game. i'm pretty sure there are people who care about elements of any game's story without having ever played it. besides which, that doesn't really address my point -- if you are claiming that you can tell a game's fans from non-fans based on *what* they want you to change, that's just another piece of evidence that you can tell fans from non-fans, no?

and my games have a ton of detractors, i have a lot of experience telling apart criticism from non-fans and fans. one example of this is when my game was on game giveaway of the day; a lot of those weren't fans because they didn't seek out the game and just got it for free as part of that site's program. i've probably around as much experience at it as cactus had prior to hotline miami's popularity. i'm not sure the size base matters, what matters is the experience of the characteristics of fans and non-fans, whether it was in the hundreds or the millions those characteristics would not change

[s0]

ya but as i understand it the ending of ME3 wasn't "controversial" unless u were a fan of the series. i mean idk i only played like half of the first mass effect, im just repeating what i read on the internet.

[gimymblert]

Yeah I wasn't really making a point, just giving more context about ME3 ending.

However in the current context, both are based on betrayal. Cara didn't call the author bad (but I did), she just told the process of how the game made her feel betrayed. Me3 fan where betrayed too.

however this present comment is removed from "rape" as a social problem, it's a comment on what was going on.

It also shown that we are insensitive to experience we don't care (rape or fan investment in a universe) abstract from value judgement.

However a sense of value is important, that's the main difference between ME3 and Hotline miami, ME3 is as removed as possible from the real world past the obvious identification with humanoid and their behavior.

[gimymblert]

We must also understand the social implication of rape and murder, or even plain handicapping injury.

- Rapee tend to cover their situation otherwise they might be dead socially has rape isn't recognize as a deep trauma at large by peer. Especially for men, it mean internalizing suffering in fear of rejection. Being rape is a social handicap that invalidate the worth a person, whether he recover from the trauma or not. And also rapist get the support adding insult to the injury.

- Death is a loss that can almost be a social badge of "burden honor", it elicit instant support, pity and gravity. It is treat with a great deal of respect in most representation, and it is something everybody can relate to because it is inevitable whatever the cause (natural or not).

- Handicap have the whole spectrum (depending on the type and cause of the handicap) between the two but overall have less stigma than rape.

The concept of rape is worse than death is precisely an extension of the social construct of a rapee in a rape culture. If rape was treat like death, maybe it would not be seen as such.

I also want to add that violence and loss are massively glamorized in media, and when you say you love Hotline miami and want the bad association with rape gone or deemphasis its because you enact part of this celebration.

Therefore that the intent is to show how absurd depiction of violence in media (wink wink) is a total and flat failure, as it engage in a more outrageous celebration of the violence it denounce. And it's not creative, it has been done before and even AAA game have done it, you can't go more safe than AAA

[Dragonmaw]

Just played the PAX demo.

The fake rape scene has been removed.

[MrBones]

Just played the PAX demo.

The fake rape scene has been removed.

Interesting. I guess the devs just avoided a larger controversy.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

or maybe they rationally realized it would be hurtful to some of their players, and felt the game would be better without it? that seems the more likely possibility than to think of them as cynical betrayers of artistic integrity just to avoid controversy

[Fetus Commander]

or maybe they rationally realized it would be hurtful to some of their players, and felt the game would be better without it? that seems the more likely possibility than to think of them as cynical betrayers of artistic integrity just to avoid controversy

i doubt it, it was probably just the controversy factor

although, assuming they did do it for the reason you suggest- why?  to me that seems dumb.  that's like saying to a wargame dev, "you shouldn't make that game about war because it might be hurtful to soldiers who've experienced it."  why is rape a protected subject in a medium that's like 90% about giving the middle finger to censorship?

[MrBones]

or maybe they rationally realized it would be hurtful to some of their players, and felt the game would be better without it? that seems the more likely possibility than to think of them as cynical betrayers of artistic integrity just to avoid controversy

Honestly, I feel like if this were true they would not have even considered making the scene in the first place.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

although, assuming they did do it for the reason you suggest- why?

did you read this thread at all? read my previous posts in this topic for the answer to this

[Fetus Commander]

although, assuming they did do it for the reason you suggest- why?

did you read this thread at all? read my previous posts in this topic for the answer to this

i didn't read anything in this thread that invalidated what i said.  i see a lot of debate over whether murder is worse than rape, and why, and similar nonsense

[feminazi]

is it really a medium that's 90% giving middle finger to censorship? i'm pretty sure 90% of the medium is iphone apps and some garbage mario clones on game maker community. and then how is that done with a rape joke? oh you pissed off some feminists and rape victims. what power did you give the middle finger to, again?

[Fetus Commander]

is it really a medium that's 90% giving middle finger to censorship? i'm pretty sure 90% of the medium is iphone apps and some garbage mario clones on game maker community. and then how is that done with a rape joke? oh you pissed off some feminists and rape victims. what power did you give the middle finger to, again?

lol true i guess

i guess i still haven't heard any good arguments as far as why rape is a "nono" in games, and ludicrous amounts of violence, etc, are.  not in this thread, or anywhere else

[ThemsAllTook]

i guess i still haven't heard any good arguments as far as why rape is a "nono" in games, and ludicrous amounts of violence, etc, are.  not in this thread, or anywhere else

This post explains it well: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=35390.msg932005#msg932005

i don't think people who have been raped not wanting to see rape is any more of a delicate sensibility than soldiers who have been shot not wanting to play fps games. also, you keep thinking this is about offense, but it isn't offense at all. it has absolutely nothing to do with being offended, it has to do with being physically unable to play a game with rape in it. i think that's where the mrm accusation of eva comes from, that you are unable to entertain the notion that there are honestly people who can't play games with rape in them without a trauma reaction. that isn't them just being sensitive, it's a normal psychological response to a remembered psychological trauma. it's similar to how a lot of people who are afraid of heights experienced vertigo when playing ico. it's not that they were "too sensitive" it's just that they have a physiological response to heights that they can't control, and playing ico triggered that response

[Blambo]

It must suck for victims of war-related ptsd because of the saturation of the media with violence.

I forget, did we talk about placing COD MW 2 style warnings in games?

[Fetus Commander]

and of course it's not the dev's job to care about that, but it is their job to make games that people enjoy and to make sales, but if a significant proportion of people are unable to play your game that 2 lines of code can rectify, i don't see any reason not to do it, since that means they did their job better (made a game that a higher percent of people can enjoy than otherwise)

oh, so it is ultimately a marketing thing then.  that's what i thought.

but are there not soldiers with PTSD who have the same physical reaction to Call of Duty?  i mean, i don't know the ins and outs of the different types of PTSD, but aren't there non-rape victims who experience what you've described about different shit in different games?

it's interesting that the post mentions vertigo.  there's a lot of people who can't play videogames at all because of a, well, physical response called epilepsy, but we don't stop making videogames, and i'd be hard pressed to pick out 3 games that were "epileptic friendly"

[Blambo]

Yeah there's a lot of content out there that has some triggering violence for PTSD victims, and also a lot of warnings that let them steer away from that kind of stuff.

But at some point it gets kind of hard to not find a youtube video of a dude's head getting lopped off in a video game.

Lots of art can be made without having to use violence, but it's just that the verbage is very immediate and universal so thus very suiting for games. Meaningless saturation does a bit more harm than good.

[ThemsAllTook]

but are there not soldiers with PTSD who have the same physical reaction to Call of Duty?  i mean, i don't know the ins and outs of the different types of PTSD, but aren't there non-rape victims who experience what you've described about different shit in different games?

Yep. However, the key difference from what I've gathered is just how prevalent rape actually is. Portraying trauma experienced by as much as 1/12th of your potential audience is pretty significant. Violence isn't cool, but on a person-by-person basis it's a lot less likely to trigger someone's PTSD.

[Fetus Commander]

but are there not soldiers with PTSD who have the same physical reaction to Call of Duty?  i mean, i don't know the ins and outs of the different types of PTSD, but aren't there non-rape victims who experience what you've described about different shit in different games?

Yep. However, the key difference from what I've gathered is just how prevalent rape actually is. Portraying trauma experienced by as much as 1/12th of your potential audience is pretty significant. Violence isn't cool, but on a person-by-person basis it's a lot less likely to trigger someone's PTSD.

lol

how prevalent rape is?  vs war?  vs epilepsy?  are you serious?

[ThemsAllTook]

lol

how prevalent rape is?  vs war?  vs epilepsy?  are you serious?

There's no need to be dismissive. If you think my information is wrong, post some data indicating that it is. Easily available statistics put the prevalence of active epilepsy at 1% of the population on the high end. "War" isn't as easy to measure because it depends on how you define it, but feel free to look for a statistic that indicates that a significant portion of your audience will have served in combat.