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[baconman]

Kraid is a vertically-focused fight. The introductory part is on level ground, and there so that you know HOW to hit him - shoot his face to open his mouth, and make him eat missile. Once you've adequately demonstrated that you CAN attack him, then it goes into the second, vertical-phase, which is focused on using his belly spikes to control your vertical positioning to avoid his attacks, and then counter until you win.

Ridley, on the other hand, is a horizontally-focused fight. Most of HIS attacks have to be avoided side-to-side, in particular, his signature pogo-tail attack. This not only tests your mastery of horizontal momentum, but also your ability to use certain abilities (like the morph ball) to quickly manuever and reposition yourself.

Draygon, not counting the grappling beam trick; is a horizontal vs. diagonal battle. YOU gain an advantage at remaining relatively diagonal to his position, where IT gains advantage if you're lined up with it either other way.

Yes, there are backdoor trickery ways to combat the bosses/minibosses. All of them. This is designed for two purposes - little kids who can't beat them the hard way, so that when they call the Nintendo Help Line, the crew can tell them an idiotproof way of winning the battle; and two, as forementioned, boss battles are just a little flavor added in here and there to present a sense of danger, and keep the flow of item, progression, item... from getting stale before you complete the game (to whichever degree you define that).

EDIT: Also, notice that boss battles are the ONLY time the musical score changes from atmospheric to being the intense and driving boss battle music that, apart from the Brinstar theme, is probably the highlight of the soundtrack in that game.

[gimymblert]

It's not inconsistent either, the design is base on serenpidity, the "gimmick" make the player feels smarter, especially after being in a situation of danger, it emulate similar proposition in film with deux ex fight resolution and has a kind of "world" logic, even though it's more story word logic. It gives mood and atmosphere, a sense of adventure senses and discovery.

[DangerMomentum]

J-Snake, do you see any value in moves or mechanics that are more difficult to execute than core mechanics?

[J-Snake]

It's not inconsistent either, the design is base on serenpidity, the "gimmick" make the player feels smarter, especially after being in a situation of danger, it emulate similar proposition in film with deux ex fight resolution and has a kind of "world" logic, even though it's more story word logic. It gives mood and atmosphere, a sense of adventure senses and discovery.

It's all just interpretation in trying to make sense of everything. The gimmick is decoupled from any mechanical integrity.

[J-Snake]

J-Snake, do you see any value in moves or mechanics that are more difficult to execute than core mechanics?

Sure! Look here for example:

[The Translocator]

I personally didn't like the controls for Super Metroid, I vastly prefered the gravity and momentum in Zero Mission, and the physics look better in SMT, but that doesn't make it a bad game. If anything the fact that it's still trumpeted as amazing after so long with slightly daunting controls proves it had great game design.

[gimymblert]

It's not inconsistent either, the design is base on serenpidity, the "gimmick" make the player feels smarter, especially after being in a situation of danger, it emulate similar proposition in film with deux ex fight resolution and has a kind of "world" logic, even though it's more story word logic. It gives mood and atmosphere, a sense of adventure senses and discovery.

It's all just interpretation in trying to make sense of everything. The gimmick is decoupled from any mechanical integrity.

I think you don't read enough dev interview about the subject to be an expert on this part, it's mechanically coupled to atmosphere, it's almost art gamey, that's not theonly mechanics that achieve that (the metroid sucking your life at the end, the first fight with ridley, etc ...) those don't fit mechanical gamey integrity either, they fit atmosphere treatment

[baconman]

*shrugs*

Well, I dunno if there's any more I can add to this discussion right now. If "Super Met Tournament" ends up being a competitive run'n'gun, it doesn't *have* to be Metroidlike at all. The only thing I'm going to suggest, again, is to change the name of it if it's going to be deliberately different, just to avoid the confusion from the outside perspective.

But it's fun revisiting the Metroid concept, isn't it? Really hammering down what each one did right/wrong and all that.

[gimymblert]

now let me introduce you all to other m

[Canned Turkey]

*retches*
No.
No other M.
Get out.

[baconman]

*Charge Ice Beams Gimmy*
*Super Missiles Gimmy*
*Power Bombs this thread*

[gimymblert]

i'm immune to ice beam, call adam to suicide

[Dragonmaw]

so did we ever settle on what j-snake was saying because i still can't figure it out.

i guess if he's making competitive pvp metroid, his controls make sense for pow pow shooty boys, but that's not really what metroid is about. metroid is, above all, a platformer, a game about navigating an environment on limited resources. building it to be contra fits a pvp environment, but it certainly doesn't fit super metroid. it removes the thoughtfulness and gravity of movement for no real reason.

it's like complaining that call of duty has bad driving physics. that misses the point; it may if you want a driving game, but if you want a shootman game, the driving physics work perfectly.

you want super metroid to be something it's not, as people keep pointing out. those controls won't work for a pvp game, that's obvious, but i wouldn't say they significantly diminish super metroid

[J-Snake]

I think you don't read enough dev interview about the subject to be an expert on this part

That's not how you get an expert on any part.

[J-Snake]

You have to see it in context. What I have shown were just early brainstorming results hinting how the controls can scale to reward diverse traversal ideas (Super Metroid cannot because of convolution and incosistency). It's not a representation of a balanced finished game. In the finished game you won't be able to just fly around whenever you want. Using suit power is limited and comes with a cost.

What I am trying to achieve is nothing for "pow pow shooty boys" since your combat success will highly depend on your traversal strategy and suit/weapon management. Only thinking and creative players will rank at the top.

Also it is nothing that approximates Other M. Other M tends to approximate quick time events. I am about granular control that scales well to achieve advanced actions.

Ok, that rather ended up a slightly larger thread on explaining why SM could be a lot better. I think I provided sufficient hints to get an idea on my stance. Those who are interested can try to make some sense of it. In the end it is about coming to the conclusion that mechanics and controls for combat can go hand in hand with the explorative single player adventure, they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

The most convincing argument has to be the working game itself. I guess that will be the right time when to debate all these things.

[Alevice]

Even then, unless you replicate the original game progression and stuff, which doesnt seem to be the goal of your fangams, you would end up comparing oranges with apples. Your best bet would be a romhack I suppose.

[DangerMomentum]

Even then, unless you replicate the original game progression and stuff, which doesnt seem to be the goal of your fangams, you would end up comparing oranges with apples. Your best bet would be a romhack I suppose.

Truth. I feel like Super Metroid is one of the best examples of exactly what you're trying to propose, except you're using it as an example of a poor execution instead of a good one. Maybe you should distance your idea from Metroid and start with a clean slate, because everybody seems to have totally different expectations coming from Metroid than you do.

[J-Snake]

I should have mentioned in this thread that Super Metroid Tournament is supposed to be the tournament mode of an original single player adventure (just with Metroid skins put on it for the time being). I am working towards both things.

[gimymblert]

I'm sayin you are not an expert in what they wanted to achieve, that's all i'm sayin', what works in your edge case is not the intended result, that's an extension and a side step toward a new direction. Elements that you find broken don't contribute to the design goal: atmosphere.

[J-Snake]

What do you think about Dark Souls. Does combat disturb the sense of exploration and atmosphere?