rj
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« Reply #200 on: February 13, 2015, 10:50:37 AM » |
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not in forever years
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J-Snake
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« Reply #201 on: February 13, 2015, 03:44:55 PM » |
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Super Metroid's verbs are predominately related to exploration, traversal and navigation, not combat. The two structures aren't as easily comparable as you'd like to think. Super Metroid with no enemies can work easily; Dark Souls with no enemies cannot. That doesn't imply "Super Metroid cannot work with combat". So where do you see the actual problem? Dark Souls is also about exploration, but you not only explore environment and ways to get from A to B. You also explore the enemies. Instead of jumping your way from A to B you walk and fight your way through. And jumping is not very interesting or engaging in Super Metroid.
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Quicksand-T
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« Reply #202 on: February 13, 2015, 05:08:58 PM » |
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Super Metroid with no enemies can work easily; Dark Souls with no enemies cannot.
I actually was telling a friend the other day that I want a Metroid game with no enemies or combat. Not just a Metroidvania, but an actual Metroid game.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #203 on: February 13, 2015, 05:11:42 PM » |
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Can you elaborate why. Are you a speedrunner?
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Quicksand-T
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« Reply #204 on: February 13, 2015, 05:14:05 PM » |
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Can you elaborate why. Are you a speedrunner?
Not at all, no. It's because the most memorable and interesting aspects of Super Metroid and Metroid Prime for me are the atmosphere, exploration, and implied storytelling elements. Shooting at bugs is an order of magnitude less significant, for me.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #205 on: February 13, 2015, 06:13:01 PM » |
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I see where your conditioning is coming from, I too find shooting bugs insignificant.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #206 on: February 13, 2015, 08:12:26 PM » |
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If you are not a speedrunner and I would ask you the following: Would you rather replay Super Metroid or Dark Souls. What would you choose and why.
You would replay those games for fundamentally different reasons. Dark Souls is less about the path you take to the objective, since levels are fairly linear, and more about the build you make and how you utilize it. Thus, you would replay Dark Souls if you felt like playing an RPG. Super Metroid is all about taking different paths to the same goal. Thus, you would replay Super Metroid for exploratory reasons; Symphony of the Night is much the same way. Both games have relatively weak combat, but interesting abilities, especially pertaining to movement (Shinespark, Alucard's Super Jump). I don't know why you ask "if you aren't a speedrunner" because that doesn't really have any bearing on who you're talking to.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #207 on: February 13, 2015, 09:15:59 PM » |
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I don't think your analysis of super metroid is spot on IN CONTEXT of what it want to achieve, but if you do a awesome combat oriented metoid souls, i'm all for it, because it sound great.
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baconman
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« Reply #208 on: February 15, 2015, 11:59:09 AM » |
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Quicksand-T: Look up Knytt. It's exactly what you're talking about.
rj/J-Snake: Look up Mercenary Kings, THAT'S exactly what YOU'RE talking about.
J-Snake: Actually, YOU might wanna bust out some Gentrieve too, by the sound of it. It's focused a lot more on enemy battling with basic platforming, rather than the kinds of advanced platforming trickery that SuperMet is known for; and phr00t and I weren't a dick about the aerial momentum, either.
EDIT: You can make an experience of SuperMet without enemies; but you can't really make it a GAME, since they are primarily your losing condition, and the obstacles of the layouts themselves. The real punishment for colliding with an enemy isn't just the 10P or so of health they take off, that's just building towards your lose condition - the punishment is that now for a split-second, you've lost control of your direction and momentum, and with precision platforming, you basically fail.
SuperMet - enemies = Dark Souls - enemies; the removal of risk and uncertainty would destroy the thrilling experience, and with it, the entire atmosphere of the game.
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« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 12:05:06 PM by baconman »
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rj
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« Reply #209 on: February 15, 2015, 12:34:59 PM » |
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rj/J-Snake: Look up Mercenary Kings, THAT'S exactly what YOU'RE talking about
how the fuck is mercenary kings in any way relevant to anything i said at all about how he's wrong regarding super metroid's controls (ps: i own it. i still haven't beat it, but it's enjoyable, if not quite as good as scott pilgrim vs the world, but it's fun and nice to look at)
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JutsBeaumont
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« Reply #210 on: February 15, 2015, 12:52:44 PM » |
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If you are not a speedrunner and I would ask you the following: Would you rather replay Super Metroid or Dark Souls. What would you choose and why. I've replayed both endlessly? My status as a speedrunner -- which, I might add, i'm not, although I ~can~ beat Super Metroid in about an hour -- is irrelevant to that. My point is that the way Super Metroid treats combat is fundamentally different on every level from how you think it ought to. What you suggest is a perversion of it's specifically crafted essences towards another means. And that's fine, tradition has little intrinsic worth. But basing your criticism of the game on that is not the same thing as guiding a similar body to a different essence. The latter is acceptable, the former is to criticize a square for not being a circle. but you can't really make it a GAME, since they are primarily your losing condition, and the obstacles of the layouts themselves. then maybe games shouldn't be called games the removal of risk and uncertainty would destroy the thrilling experience, and with it, the entire atmosphere of the game. the enemies in super metroid are rarely a "risk", and risk can take more forms than just "can this guy beat you up".
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J-Snake
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« Reply #211 on: February 15, 2015, 01:04:10 PM » |
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If you are not a speedrunner and I would ask you the following: Would you rather replay Super Metroid or Dark Souls. What would you choose and why. I've replayed both endlessly? Why did you replay Super Metroid, what motivation did you have to replay it?
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J-Snake
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« Reply #212 on: February 15, 2015, 01:57:30 PM » |
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rather than the kinds of advanced platforming trickery that SuperMet is known for; It isn't advanced in SM, it is cumbersome. That's the fundamental thing to distinguish. Otherwise the things I am talking about won't make much sense to you. In my work: Advanced platforming and combat form a unity. You will have to utilize various ways of platforming for both, combat- and traversal/exploration demands. In my vision, advanced platforming challenges in itself can be considered a type of an enemy. You have to explore and overcome it.
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JutsBeaumont
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« Reply #213 on: February 15, 2015, 01:58:31 PM » |
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The initial motivation was exploration, in the sense that I wanted to see more of what was present or re-experience things I had already experienced. The second "phase" came about as more of a mechanical revolution, as I realized that wall-jumping and shine-sparking and various other techniques possessed a great amount of potential to engage with the structure of the game differently. Things that once spoke as rules shifted form and became suggestions, revealing the true depth of its design and structure; it elucidated what actually constituted "rules" and what simply appeared to be based on difficulty or ignorance. Further runs carried the same structure, and occasionally gravitated towards experimenting with the limits of the mechanics and speed -- light speed running -- or simply wanting to re-experience or analyze specific areas or structures. It should be noted, additionally, that with greater exploration of its mechanics came also greater performance and more varied combative maneuvers. Though the game is not about combat, as a thing isolated from its environmental navigation (its enemies are environmental pieces themselves, as the colossi in shadow of the colossus are puzzles), its mechanics still lend themselves to a greater degree of style and variety than you're suggesting. http://youtu.be/Iz-w0dqF2dA?t=53sTake this sequence, for example. Though from a romhack, it is still perfectly possible to replicate using the original games systems.
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JutsBeaumont
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« Reply #214 on: February 15, 2015, 01:59:45 PM » |
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It isn't advanced, it is cumbersome. Your notion of what does and does not qualify as "cumbersome" is strange and often hypocritical. You strive to remove the physicality from the actions all in the name of "efficiency" or "accessibility".
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« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 02:29:24 PM by Gizmonicgamer »
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J-Snake
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« Reply #215 on: February 15, 2015, 02:32:21 PM » |
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The initial motivation was exploration, in the sense that I wanted to see more of what was present or re-experience things I had already experienced. I see, how long did it last? How long did it take until you realized you have seen all the bosses on your first playthrough and the only things left were the excessive amount of items? You strive to remove the physicality "Remove" is the wrong word, let's say I am "changing" or even "adding" physicality and make it more consistent.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #216 on: February 15, 2015, 02:52:09 PM » |
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http://youtu.be/Iz-w0dqF2dA?t=53sTake this sequence, for example. Though from a romhack, it is still perfectly possible to replicate using the original games systems. It's also perfectly possible to eat soup with sticks, if you train long enough. That doesn't make sticks a great tool for eating.
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beetleking22
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« Reply #217 on: February 15, 2015, 03:37:32 PM » |
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I would never play Super metroid twice if the game had Dark soul level difficulty..... Its would be too frustrating to explore big ass maze with hard ass combat...
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J-Snake
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« Reply #218 on: February 15, 2015, 03:49:21 PM » |
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I would never play Super metroid twice if the game had Dark soul level difficulty Me neither.
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JutsBeaumont
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« Reply #219 on: February 15, 2015, 05:20:04 PM » |
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I see, how long did it last? How long did it take until you realized you have seen all the bosses on your first playthrough and the only things left were the excessive amount of items? ...This point never explicitly happened. With each "run" it only ever uncovered more, or prompted additional paths or ways through. I've "stopped" but there are still plenty of things for me to try, despite having 100%'d the game and effectively speed ran it. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at it here but it seems misguided if your questions are any indication. It's also perfectly possible to eat soup with sticks, if you train long enough. That doesn't make sticks a great tool for eating. Maybe because soup isn't meant to be eaten with sticks. "Remove" is the wrong word, let's say I am "changing" or even "adding" physicality and make it more consistent. Change, yes, but you're definitely not adding anything of worth. My assumption is that most of the time you want to run, so slowing down should require an additional action, not the other way round. This removes. Having a run button is important in creating a level of physicality, it further attaches you to the movements you're doing; it also serves a purpose in defining the speed-boost as a separate action to conventional movement. If you have the capability
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« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 06:13:07 PM by Gizmonicgamer »
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