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[Dacke]

Being "intelligent" and "a decent human being" are two extremely different things. The idea that only stupid (or lower class) people harass women is a very dangerous idea. The reality is that misogynistic ideas can be just as common among people with high intelligence and/or status. The difference being that people with intelligence/status know how to put on a façade. Society is often more than happy to trust and defend them, question the experiences of victims and generally look the other way.

Gamergate has systematically been harassing women. This is a fact. Saying that "well, some of them seem pretty smart" is completely nonsensical.

To put it simply, a hostile attitude towards gaming as a hobby will make you a "gamergate target". We don't like people acting like they're above the unwashed masses, is all.

You can't be serious. Gamergate has targeted and harassed indie developers, game critics and generally people who have spoken up against sexism in gaming. Mostly targeting women. Basically people who have worked to create games, promote games and tried to make gaming inclusive for more people. Wth.

[s0]

videogames are my hobby, but i also criticize gaming as a hobby because imo "gamer culture" as it is gives a platform to toxic bs. has nothing to do with any "unwashed masses" or anything.

anyway,

We don't like people acting like they're above the unwashed masses, is all.

lol you know thats not true. gaming is rife with elitist fucks who get a pass from gamergate and are often even part of gamergate (cf the obsession with "true gamers" a part of GG has). its only people critcizing "core" gaming culture from a certain angle who get shit from GG.

i shouldn't even have brought up gamergate but o well.

[Nillo]

i shouldn't even have brought up gamergate but o well.

Right. I know that neither of you two want to have your view changed on this topic, so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Dacke]

Yeah, because us "not wanting to change our minds" is the issue here. Not you defending a movement based on harassment of women.

[ProgramGamer]

Remember that one time you told me to not look up the whole Gamergate thing?

[TeeGee]

videogames are my hobby, but i also criticize gaming as a hobby because imo "gamer culture" as it is gives a platform to toxic bs. has nothing to do with any "unwashed masses" or anything.

[...]

gaming is rife with elitist fucks who get a pass from gamergate and are often even part of gamergate (cf the obsession with "true gamers" a part of GG has). its only people critcizing "core" gaming culture from a certain angle who get shit from GG.

Gaming is also pretty much the only hobby-related "culture" that has it. Aside from playing a lot of video games, I'm into movies, music, cycling and a few other things. Each of those pastimes is an important part of my life, but none has me base my entire identity around it the way "gamer culture" expects me to. And I know no movie buffs who react to -- say -- criticism of Hollywood formula with harassment and trash talk because "someone insulted movie-goers!1!!".

Really makes me wonder where we went wrong with the medium as a whole.  

[ProgramGamer]

[...]
Really makes me wonder where we went wrong with the medium as a whole. 

It was born at the same time as the internet. Need I say more?

[Nillo]

Gaming is also pretty much the only hobby-related "culture" that has it. Aside from playing a lot of video games, I'm into movies, music, cycling and a few other things. Each of those pastimes is an important part of my life, but none has me base my entire identity around it the way "gamer culture" expects me to. And I know no movie buffs who react to -- say -- criticism of Hollywood formula with harassment and trash talk because "someone insulted movie-goers!1!!".

The nature of the medium is such that a greater degree of participation is required. You can't "passively" enjoy a video game; it's not something you can put in the background while you're cooking food or cleaning the house. Well, that's true for most games at least. There are some incremental games you can passively play while doing other things, but I don't think those would be considered normal games by any stretch.

With this in mind, I think it's only natural that gaming becomes more of a "lifestyle" hobby compared to consuming other forms of media like movies, music, etc. It's probably more accurate to compare video games to other activities such as golf or football. Those can and do have "cultures" built around enjoying the activity. (I hate going to family dinners because they talk about golf ALL the time and are totally obsessed with golf, haha.)

[Dacke]

So you're saying that gamergate are the hooligans of gaming? Hm, sort of makes sense.

Hooliganism is disruptive or unlawful behavior such as rioting, bullying, and vandalism.

[gimymblert]

you don't get targeted by "hate groups" just for being a "walking simulator", you have to have some juicy personal dealings and drama involved there to really get people riled up.

on topic, tho, Sunset is just the epitome of "boring". feels like some kinda vaporwave: the game, just without any of the fun parts. I actually think that "walking simulators" are experiencing "downfall". I used to be moderately excited about interesting new experiences in games like these, but these days I don't even bother with any of them, and just look towards the next roguelike/AAA/tbs game. Stanley Parable was probably the last walking simulator I actually really enjoyed, and nothing has even remotely excited me since then in that "genre".

frankly, I rather watch a movie or read a book than slog through another walking simulator.

Deception quest was free of personal drama at the time, personal drama that happen later was the excuse for the previous harassement. That's truly digging the dirt.

you don't get it; they are the one who are segregated by gamer in the fist place

Wouldn't it be self-isolation since people have clearly spoken in the past that they don't like the controls and gameplay of their games and they've done nothing to evolve or improve their style.

That's stupid, some people like the control some don't, Mario galaxy have bad control inferior to mario 64, many people have pointed that, how is that a point. Many people get the control just fine, in fact you can tell it was needed as typical control made them sick.

[oahda]

what view is there to be changed when you claim gg only targets people who criticise gaming as a hobby when it is a fact that people who have gotten targeted have often been devs, streamers or the like, definitely interested in gaming as a hobby

and either way, "targeting" at all is what makes it this juvenile and frankly dangerous bullshit rather than a movement whose stands can be taken seriously

[Christian Knudsen]

I don't think it's a matter of games being interactive. It's a matter of having to interact with other people. Video games didn't just get birthed around the same time of the internet -- modern video games are deeply integrated with the internet through online play. In some alternate reality where only single player games existed, I don't think we'd be seeing as widespread issues (or just look back at the early days of video games before the internet existed -- there wasn't such a thing as being a "gamer" back then). It's basically the worst aspect of internet culture seeping into gaming culture (i.e. being able to be a dick in anonymity from the comfort of your couch/desk).

[dancing_dead]

Being "intelligent" and "a decent human being" are two extremely different things. The idea that only stupid (or lower class) people harass women is a very dangerous idea. The reality is that misogynistic ideas can be just as common among people with high intelligence and/or status. The difference being that people with intelligence/status know how to put on a façade. Society is often more than happy to trust and defend them, question the experiences of victims and generally look the other way.

Gamergate has systematically been harassing women. This is a fact. Saying that "well, some of them seem pretty smart" is completely nonsensical.

my remark about low iq was just a jab at those who would harass women purely because they're women. that's an idea, a motivation that falls apart at any remotely rational investigation, somewhat like some form of religious fundamentalism, where no amount of critical analysis can convince the man with the belief. harassing women for being women just strikes me as incredibly stupid.

which is the prime reason why I don't quite buy it. it simply sounds like wishful conspiracy - an organisation that targets people for purposes that are precisely this sinister and plain. while there has been harassment of people on the internet (that truly is an obvious fact for anyone who's spent more than 5 minutes in any moderately public internet space), it's not limited to women as targets, and gamergate as perpetrators. from what I've seen, the organised side of gamergate (such as r/kia or the most prominent gaters on good ol' twitter) has never made "harassment" a systematic goal. worst they've done is, imo, the email campaigns, trying to strangle the income of some media portals that they disagree with. that's a moderately evil tactic.

but systemic harassment of women? a convenient enemy, I'm sure, but one that I've yet to see some evidence for, especially, I repeat, the systemic part of it.

[Dacke]

So in your view we're not reacting to the massive harassment conducted by gamergate. We've only made that up as a convenient cover for our actual goal which is to...?

[dancing_dead]

I have no idea, really, that's why I'm asking these questions. from what I've seen, gamergate does have some critical goals they're pursuing that in fact could be seen as aligned with the interests of creative people such as gamedevs (for example, the ongoing struggles against censorship and biases). I don't quite get why are they seen as some sort of ultimate evil. what they're doing now simply do not strike me as that kind of evil. that's all.

[Nillo]

So in your view we're not reacting to the massive harassment conducted by gamergate. We've only made that up as a convenient cover for our actual goal which is to...?

There is a great social advantage in being united against a common enemy, regardless of what that enemy is. It strengthens the bonds with others in the group, which results in benefits too numerous to mention. GamerGate is an easy target that can be rallied against for this purpose.

[TeeGee]

The nature of the medium is such that a greater degree of participation is required. You can't "passively" enjoy a video game;

Sure, games are super-engrossing. When I play something like Monster Hunter, I'm full of adrenaline and I've been known to yell curses, throw controllers, etc. But if you ever danced till you dropped on a rave party, you'd realize it's not just games that can inspire such raw emotion. Thing is: that's during the consumption of the medium, while gamer rage seems to bleed into other aspects of one's life.

I can get into a heated fanboy debate on why I think Bloodborne's level design is worse than Demon's Souls, just like I can argue why I think Inception is an awful movie -- that's common for hobbyists. But I seriously don't get why people get so obsessively defensive about games as a whole. It's weird.

It's probably more accurate to compare video games to other activities such as golf or football. Those can and do have "cultures" built around enjoying the activity. (I hate going to family dinners because they talk about golf ALL the time and are totally obsessed with golf, haha.)

And my dad can't shut up about music. But he doesn't send death threats to journalists who wrote a critical review of his favorite record, and he's not a part of an online movement dedicated to defending music from some perceived threat. Just like I'm sure your family doesn't send angry emails to people who dislike golf.

Football is the only other hobby that comes to my mind that can get as violent. But there at least I can sort of get where it's coming from. Games? Nope.

it simply sounds like wishful conspiracy - an organisation that targets people for purposes that are precisely this sinister and plain.

Why? It wouldn't be the first one.

[Christian Knudsen]

It's the internet. Pure and simple.

EDIT: The internet isn't pure and simple. The explanation is!

[oahda]

@dancing_dead:

eh, it's not that unusual for nerdy boys (read: "gamers") to have almost no proper contact with girls and develop some genuinely nasty views on women – sometimes especially fuelled by them actually getting a female friend and trying to initiate a deeper relationship with them and end up getting rejected (and saying they were FRIENDZONED when she was never interested in the first place) and the company of other such cases to reinforce those views

it's almost a cliché and i've seen it happen more than once

[TeeGee]

So in your view we're not reacting to the massive harassment conducted by gamergate. We've only made that up as a convenient cover for our actual goal which is to...?

There is a great social advantage in being united against a common enemy, regardless of what that enemy is. It strengthens the bonds with others in the group, which results in benefits too numerous to mention. GamerGate is an easy target that can be rallied against for this purpose.

But isn't this how GamerGate works? There's a strong "united we stand" narrative. There's the common enemy in Evil SJW Reptilian conspiracy. There's the easy target in women who have online presence.