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[theEasternDragon]

Personally, I am either for the compass with the breadcrumb system, or (more preferably), the map during hibernation. In regards to the latter, I like the ideas that have been presented, with knowledge fading if you haven't visited the rooms in a while. I think that this is the best idea so far, and though I personally don't have trouble navigating through the world sans-map, I can see where others might.

Map during hibernation has my vote!

[Woodledude]

Personally, I am either for the compass with the breadcrumb system, or (more preferably), the map during hibernation. In regards to the latter, I like the ideas that have been presented, with knowledge fading if you haven't visited the rooms in a while. I think that this is the best idea so far, and though I personally don't have trouble navigating through the world sans-map, I can see where others might.

Map during hibernation has my vote!

I like the idea, too, although I think we'd have to have it playtested to see if it really works. THe fading I think would be fine, but only on the condition that the slugcat's "memory" lasts for MANY rain cycles. A room shouldn't dissappear until it's been 5 or 6 cycles, somewhere around there, or you'll never have a comprehensive map of an area. And revisiting an area several times from different entrances shouldn't just reset the timer, they should multiply the time left, too, so it lasts even longer. That way, once you're familiar with a region, you'll just about always have a map of it, too.

[gimymblert]

no map = playtest

otherwise it is just aimless speculation

[Crispy75]

I like the idea, too, although I think we'd have to have it playtested to see if it really works. THe fading I think would be fine, but only on the condition that the slugcat's "memory" lasts for MANY rain cycles. A room shouldn't dissappear until it's been 5 or 6 cycles, somewhere around there, or you'll never have a comprehensive map of an area.

Geometry remembered forever. Information (food, threats, safety) fuzzy?

[theEasternDragon]

Warning: long winded and not-so-on-topic wall of text ahead.

A cool idea for this: maybe the map could have different emotions associated with it. For instance, say you run into a lizard, then the map of the room might have some kind of color coding indicating wariness. If you got caught, but escaped, it would be associated with outright fear. Or say, you run into another slugcat, (are we going to have rival slugcats? As in not player controlled ones?), maybe that would be associated with kind of a communal respect, or anger. This would of course be difficult to convey, but maybe having an effect overlaying the screen on the map, say inverting the colors of the room, and having a faint pulsing for fear, or a red tint with scratches along the edges conveying anger or conflict.

The reason I suggest this is that it has occurred to me throughout playing the game so far, that nothing that happens seems to have any effect on the slugcat emotionally. For me, this is a large part of the games I play, and seeing this from the protagonist is very important, unless it is a multiplayer experience only. Having just finished Dishonored recently, I have to say that despite the effort of the team to make you feel the emotional side effects of your decisions, the whole silent protagonist thing really messed it up. Whereas with a game like, say, "This war of Mine", you develop an emotional attachment to the characters you play. Maybe this is not really the direction to go with a game like Rain World, but seeing some of it would be nice.

Maybe the above method is not really the way to go about this either, because the slugcat is so alien, and doesn't have the same emotions as us? Or maybe it could be cool regardless of my take on it...

Geometry remembered forever. Information (food, threats, safety) fuzzy?

The system I describe could also fade with time, much like the specific information that Crispy75 describes.

TL:DR Lets have emotions associated with rooms!

[plauk]

I feel like I'm in the minority here. I want a full map.

I guess I'll put it this way: I'll almost certainly need one, and if it isn't there, I'll end up downloading a fan-made map and jumping in and out of the game in order to use it... now, how immersion breaking is that?

I'm totally fine with making it impossible to move while viewing the map, but I feel like people who don't like maps should just not use them. Maybe if there are multiple levels of immersion, then people can decide how to play: No UI / minimal UI / full UI?

[Kingsquee]

Been following this project on and off since it was a movement prototype. Keep going guys, you're doing amazing work!

Personally, a map overview feels almost too logical. If slugcat is supposed to be hibernating, why not have him dream of exploring the world? The player could move the camera through already explored rooms, rendered in slightly dreamwoozy/maybe tinted emotional colors based on the risk/reward ratio you've encountered there, and mark rooms of interest with waypoints? This way, it serves the purpose of risk-averse planning, without revealing everything in a death-star-assault-map format.

As for how to display the waypoints without breaking immersion, perhaps a button to close the slugcat's eyes? It could darken the environment but render the pathing information as a directional glow, representing introspection and memory of the dream. This would also encourage players to memorize the world, rather than just dutifully follow the map/waypoint, since each check would leave them vulnerable for a few key moments.

[Caspar2000]

Been following this project on and off since it was a movement prototype. Keep going guys, you're doing amazing work!

Personally, a map overview feels almost too logical. If slugcat is supposed to be hibernating, why not have him dream of exploring the world? The player could move the camera through already explored rooms, rendered in slightly dreamwoozy/maybe tinted emotional colors based on the risk/reward ratio you've encountered there, and mark rooms of interest with waypoints? This way, it serves the purpose of risk-averse planning, without revealing everything in a death-star-assault-map format.

My favorite idea yet. It's no UI and you can memorize/plan without stress, while exploration remains undisturbed.

[JLJac]

Hm, I don't know... I think the very expressionistic and emotional stuff is a bit stylistically off-key. The game is rather matter-of-factly in its general tone, the idea is that what happens might be emotional but the presentation is a very straight forward. I generally want to avoid forcing a subjective experience on the player, and from the level work I get the impression that James is on the same page. It's not like Lion King where there is an Evil Land at the horizon, instead it's just strange environments fading into each other and it's up to you how you want to feel about them. The slugcat's mind should be a little bit of a black box, not because it doesn't have emotions about what is happening but because if it is a blank slate you will project your own emotions on it. Then there can never be an awkward dichotomy when the game tells you that you should have this or that emotion about something, but you actually experience something else.

So, if we're diving in slugcat's mind I'd be way more comfortable with accessing information in there rather than emotion! But, death star assault map certainly doesn't sound like what we want either haha! So, maybe information but animal-like information, somehow? As someone pointed out animals have a great spatial sense. I was amazed a few weeks ago when I was babysitting a dog how it was always able to know the direction back home after taking several turns on city streets, way better than I would be. I read somewhere that if you teach a rat a maze, and then change the maze, the rat will still tend towards the coordinate where the food previously was when exploring the new maze, proving that it doesn't simply memorize an array of lefts and rights, it has a developed concept of space. Humans obviously have a lot of that going as well (if there is road work you aren't just stopped in your tracks because your memorized order of left and right turns is broken, you find a way around) but in the super artificial environment of this 2D game that sense is definitely impeded and might need some extra enhancement to make it not frustrating. I guess the key question would be what is the minimum that can be done to achieve that? Just a little compass arrow, perhaps? Or a very simple map?

I guess I'll put it this way: I'll almost certainly need one, and if it isn't there, I'll end up downloading a fan-made map and jumping in and out of the game in order to use it... now, how immersion breaking is that?

A very valid point as well! There will be maps around, and the last thing we want is people playing in windowed mode switching back and forth to some pdf they've downloaded... If it can't be avoided, maybe make the best of it?

Update 455
Good news, vultures through shortcuts is over! And they work much better for it 

Today I'm doing some art assets. Very time consuming, but relaxing to get some time away from the code!

[ProgramGamer]

Wait, do you pixel everything or are those 3D models in a custom renderer?

[gimymblert]

@easterndragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Fs_(evolution)

[adge]

A way a map could work:
Maybe not a terminal with a simple display, because then you also would have to scale it up to make it readable by the
player because the monitor would be likely as big as the slugcat itself. Worthless to say that the terminals were made by
"things" using the shortcuts and since nothing too big can use the shortcuts the display has to be appropriate sized.
And I don't know how it is with you guys but if I turn on my monitor no 20x20 meters hologram suddenly appears above
my head.
Terminals with projectors that project the map/part of map/ recently discovered regions/.../.../ on a straight wall. Or maybe
also not straight wall.

However it could also seem unrealistic if something thats hunting Bats and fleeing from bigger predators know's how to
start up a terminal and then further use a keyboard to access files on server X that show the architecture of the environment
it's living in. But the terminals could also be just Push&Play.
Maybe these Push&Play terminals could also be used to distract lizards or to lighten up a dark areas if the slugcat is out of
blue glowee thingy. Of course just for a few seconds. Would look fancy if one of these ProjectorTerminals would be located
in a flooded area.


I think I've succeeded in explaining my thoughts in the most complicated way possible :D


Btw, Jaws absolutely look's amazing! There are some sick horror movies with soft biological and metal part monsters. Ugh!
An idea that just came to my mind because I read your post about the insecurity what you just touched under water even if
it's just sea grass. What about some real floating sea grass Jaws could hide in. Or that just serves the purpose if it appears
to not be 100% sure if it's just sea grass or Jaws that is waiting for you underwater. Could run the CPU hot if you use your
softbody approach because you would have to use plenty of seagrass to let Jaws cover in it, but it would look very cool
and drive you to think twice if you really want to jump into the water. At this state most of the world is static except vents,
water, predators... But a few sofbody plants? Just and idea. No problem if it doesn't fit your concepts.

[jamesprimate]

I really like the sea grass concept! Will keep it in mind for when we return to that region in polish pass

[JLJac]

Wait, do you pixel everything or are those 3D models in a custom renderer?

I draw it pixel art style! But then I split it up in an array of images, usually 10 for an asset, that represents the different depths. That way the level editor can render it in a kind of semi-voxel fashion (basically 30 bitmaps) and create some subtle 3D effect.

Puh, these things are complex!

[adge]

I think that  physic based softbody vegetation would fit the game very well in some places. Would look nice and predators could use them to hide. Though I dont know if that would fit your concept because of the hazardous environment. And I think its hard to implement afterwards. Alltogether it would look fancy and make the architecture itself feel more alive.

[JLJac]

Yeah, maybe in the water it could work. This has come up a few times and I've been pretty obstinate towards the idea because we have these super static, pre-rendered backgrounds with plants and everything in them, and those are a very base component of the game that's not gonna change. If the entire environment is super static, including plants, but there are some plants that moves, that would bring even more attention to the static nature of everything else. For that reason I'm doing a strict division in the artwork: creatures move, plants and environments stay still. However, in the water there is already the water shader that slowly wobbles the entire picture, so there it might actually be game to do something like that. As you say though, actually filling one of those rooms completely with physics-based seaweed isn't really viable. However it would perhaps be possible to further use the visual obstruction of the water to make some magic happen with shaders or similar.

[JLJac]

In other news - everyone who's enthusiastic about Rain World should definitely check out this short film I found the other day:



http://www.omegastopmotion.com/watch.html

It's amazingly similar to Rain World in many ways! If you dig it you should also check out this article about the making of:

http://makeitshort.fr/eva-franz-omega/

Not surprisingly they mention two main sources of inspiration that overlap with rain world's - nature documentary and (japanese) science fiction.

Isn't it awesome? If Rain World could be basically that but interactive, the dream is real!

[jctwood]

Thank you for sharing! That was really, really wonderful and so thoughtful. Excited to see the making of when it is released.

[alwex]

Just an idea for the map, what about something like in ecco the dolphin ?
The slugcat may have a sixth sens or the ability to scan is environment using echolocation that give him some clues or a mind map.

[adge]

Yeah, maybe in the water it could work. This has come up a few times and I've been pretty obstinate towards the idea because we have these super static, pre-rendered backgrounds with plants and everything in them, and those are a very base component of the game that's not gonna change. If the entire environment is super static, including plants, but there are some plants that moves, that would bring even more attention to the static nature of everything else. For that reason I'm doing a strict division in the artwork: creatures move, plants and environments stay still. However, in the water there is already the water shader that slowly wobbles the entire picture, so there it might actually be game to do something like that. As you say though, actually filling one of those rooms completely with physics-based seaweed isn't really viable. However it would perhaps be possible to further use the visual obstruction of the water to make some magic happen with shaders or similar.

Yeah I totally get that! Maybe in another area, something like a conservatory. I don't know. Since there are already plants it would seem a bit strange. But it isn't always clear that these things are actual plants. Maybe there are hard plants, and soft plants. Could just give it a try and then threw it over. Could be that it totally comes out in an unexpected way. However, it would look awesome with all the shaders and tech going on in your engine, I guess....just ideas ;=]